Revolution Stadium Groundbreaking "12-24 months" Part XV

As metoo noted, the Patriot Place model doesn't really work in the city. The major reason why is land. It's difficult to find a parcel big enough for a stadium, let alone a stadium, parking and add-on development. The Krafts also don't seem like they want to spend money on land. In fact, the common theme in every potential stadium plan we've seen is the Krafts are trying to figure out ways not to pay market value for land.

So, if they want to be near a T station and get land at a bargain, they're looking at a minimal amount of parking and additional development. Maybe they can some restaurant/bar/retail space into the stadium design. Maybe they can strike a deal with the state on a parking structure. Honestly, the option of putting a sprawling parking lot anywhere in urban Boston is a non-starter. That is not going to happen.

That means, unless the Krafts develop a whole new tolerance for buying up land for associated development, the SSS is going to have to be a workable plan all by itself.

 

Long-term, that would be a problem. If you crystal ball where the league might be and how it might operate in 30 years, you probably don't want to be in Providence. Somewhere along the way someone else surely figures out how to put a team in Boston.

Yet I've got no problem with that short-term. I could get to Providence to see games. And the Krafts would sort of open up the board for soccer in Boston by taking themselves off of it. My allegiance in this sport is strictly geographic. If Dorchester United becomes the Boston team, then Go Dot! Heading down to Providence until a team locates in Boston works for me.

 

Patriot Place is a suburban-sprawl type development - I think there's an awful lot they can do in a smaller footprint if they need to.

I think Fenway Park is pretty good model. They've done a lot without really getting any additional land (although the Yawkey Way deal is a gift from the City, and a precedent for what Boston could offer, w/o incurring major costs). These days, there is actually quite a bit going on at Fenway when there aren't games.

 

Well, I'd say the discussion is about what people mean when they say serious, because, yes, there are obviously levels, or to put it another way: 'how serious' is the effort? Very? Kinda? Not really? Serious-ish?

This is why I brought up defining what would the minimum requirements be to go ahead with the project, because then we can evaluate how likely it would be to find a piece of land and get the minimum financing. You say that you think their plan calls for enough land to have both a stadium and a shopping area, in a spot that I'd assume is also near a T stop. That may seem reasonable to you, but to me it sounds like a pipe dream, unless the Krafts are willing to pay big money for a downtown shopping area, as one would think any other developer would have to do.

In the end, it all comes back to money, and if they aren't willing to pay a reasonably close to market amount for whatever their minimum requirements are - meaning that the are looking for Boston to give them a real sweetheart deal - then it's fair to say that they aren't that serious. As has been said, the team doesn't "need" a stadium, so if their shopping equates to a family that has a decent house, but says they'll move if an incredible house comes on the market at a very good price, but otherwise they're happy enough with where they live, then they're not that serious about moving.

 

The Red Sox own almost none of the land surrounding Fenway. It's a great area. I'm over there all the time. Yet no way is the city going to give Kraft that much land, and I sincerely doubt he's going to pony up to buy it. For instance, the 20 acres in Widett Circle are expected to sell for an enormous amount of money. Maybe Kraft can get the city parcel just north of Widett, which can't fit much more than a stadium. Yet he'd be a spectator when it comes to the surrounding action.

 

The same - Rochester people heading home!

 

It makes far more sense to invest in all of it and turn it into mixed retail. They would make a bundle and would have an urban man mall. It would be a great way to break into Boston real estate even if the upfront costs are hard to swallow at first.

 

But they're not going to do that. We've seen some previous stadium plans. They had no larger development components to them and the Krafts were angling for discount/free land in each instance.

I agree with your thinking. It's just nothing like what the Krafts have pursued to date.

 

Was Patriot Place always part of the public plan once Gillette's development was on the table? I honestly don't recall, but all of that sprung up around the stadium later. I just don't remember if that was always part of the plan (publicly or privately) or something they decided to do after building the stadium.

 

I'm serious about buying the Revs, as soon as I have enough money. I hope it will happen in the next 12-24 months.

Doesn't mean it is going to happen, or is even likely.

 

Well, if it does, at least we'd have an owner who would pay attention to things other than the bottom line!

 

I'm just suggesting that there are two sides: the cost side and the revenue side - and I'd guess that the Krafts are very interested in finding ways on the revenue side to make it work (because, as others have pointed out, the investment of 200M or whatever won't be recouped by Revs' ticket/parking proceeds).

My point was - and sorry if it wasn't clear - that the City lets them use Yawkey way and treat it as their own property before/during/after games - that's a huge benefit in pulling in more revenue (and sucking it away from surrounding businesses). Now the City is in trouble for not putting those rights out to bid, but it does show a creative way that the City was able to help a local sports team without actually giving them valuable money/property.

I'm not sure that the ownership has the liquid(ish) resources to pull that off. The stating wealth of Bob Kraft is mostly tied up in non-liquid assets and is paper-wealth (unless he's willing to sell the Pats, which he ain't).

Caveat: a lot of people didn't think he had the assets to build CMGI, now Gillette. But, he was praised up and down for his creative financing plan (I don't claim to know what exactly he did, but finance people were impressed, I do remember).

And, the other factor IMO, is Bob Kraft's age and goals at this stage of his life. Is a huge development undertaking what he really wants to do? Is that something that he has faith handing over to JK?

I don't think the extent of it was part of a public plan, but he did have the land and the right zoning, so I guess it was alway understood to be a possibility. And, the beginnings of PP were kind of tentative - it didn't seem certain that it would generate the momentum to succeed, but it sure seems to have.

 

I'm glad you are concerned about the Kraft's financial situation. I'm also interested in the Krafts getting a good return on their investments. So lets take a look at what the "experts" at Forbes project to be their return on their sports businesses.

The Patriots last year estimated profits were $247 million. That alone could build you a new stadium. The Patriots are valued at $3.7 billion, not a bad return on their initial investment of $497 million ( $172m for the team and $325m for the stadium).

The Revs on the other hand only made $7 million in profits. The Revs are valued at $185 million. In addition, the MLS owners also own United Soccer Marketing which is valued at $2.5 billion; not a bad return on an initial investment of $10 million.

I would agree. At this point, I would prefer that they put an effort in building a competitive team.

 

And you said you are "serious"....so, there's that.

 

I would prefer this over any other priority or objective.

By "competitive", I mean realistically positioned, talent- and coaching-wise, to be in the mix (i.e., in the last 4 teams) come MLS Cup time, as close to EVERY year as possible.

>> This requires "difference makers", multiples of them, on the field and in the coaching staff - and even in the GM seat.​

"Competitive" is not the same as "we made the playoffs". It is a LOT more than that. "Making the playoffs" ensures you have a marketing sound bite to help maintain group sales to youth soccer organizations.

>> That's good for KSG, but it's not the level of competitiveness that I prefer.​

The FO needs to build a team to reliably (and foreseeably) get to that point annually - i.e., is able to do the basic (hard) work to succeed in regular season and early playoff rounds.

>> If so, then the team gets a chance to focus on and work through the other less-controllable variables and pure luck that combine to determine who really gets into and wins the Cup.​

Logos/crests, stadium debates, kit design - all these are distant secondary facets in my view of the "product".

 

Never going to happen buddy because I too and serious. As soon as I have enough money I will make it happen. I hope it will happen in the next 11-22 months.

My SSS is going to be a FSS. It will hold at least 70K and it will bring the really valuable and really big draw to the city. PATS in Boston! I’m serious.

 

Sorry, I'm trying, but I honestly don't understand what point you're trying to make here. We all know that there is cost and there is revenue, and that people running businesses would rather see revenues exceed costs. The conversation isn't about whether or not the Krafts should be expected to spend a huge amount of money and not ever see any return on that money - nobody is looking for that.

The questions at hand are, how much are the Krafts willing to spend and how much help or how big a hand out do they require before moving forward with such a project? Is there a realistic chance that the conditions they want could be met or found? Wanting, and working hard to get, are two very different concepts.

This conversation started for me after you said "There's no disconnect from them being 'serious', yet holding out for an ideal situation that ticks off their project requirements.", which is a statement I disagree with, because if, rather than going out and working hard to find a good situation, instead a person is "holding out", sitting around waiting for an "ideal situation" to walk up and introduce itself, then the person isn't serious about finding such a situation. Once the word ideal is used as a prerequisite, then that almost automatically disconnects the effort from being a serious one, because unless you disagree, I think it's safe to say that ideal situations pretty much only exist in made up scenarios, they are extremely rare in the real world.

So rather than get into further conversations about definitions, perhaps about what meaning of the word "is" is, I'll ask you this:

You've said that you think the Krafts' requirements are a parcel of land are:

Considering the premium on land in the city, how likely do you think it is that such a parcel could be found in Boston in the not so distant future? And, considering the fact that the team already has a functional stadium and don't technically need another one, if such a parcel were found, how close to market value do you think the Krafts would be willing to pay for it, compared to someone who wants to say, build a fancy new high rise?

 

What I'm saying is that the price the Krafts would be willing to pay (IMO) would depend on the revenue opportunities the site would present (in addition to Revs games).

I don't think they are likely to get any municipal assistance and I think they pretty much know that - and they are in competition with any other developers. They have to feel that Walsh (or whatever other mayor they might deal with) shares their interest in getting something built and can help expose revenue opportunities that could make the cost of development worth doing.

Every MLS club that doesn't already have their own SSS stadium wants to build one - and those that are near big urban centers would prefer to do it as centrally and accessibly as possible. They all want that for the same reasons - growth/revenue. The Revs may have a particularly challenging real estate environment to deal with, but they aren't totally unique in that respect.

Maybe its time to check back on Brickbottom and see if the MBTA has figured out what it wants to do yet?

 

That ship has sailed. Somerville's got a three-pronged housing/commercial development/open space plan and precious little space to achieve it. A stadium would undercut all of that, and set the brains of the Bernie-leaning local electorate on fire.

Revere is the smaller, T-accessible city that might be open to discussion.

 

I can't recall, but, regardless, Kraft owned the land. In all the time he's been hunting for a SSS site in Boston, one thing we haven't heard is him looking to buy a chunk of land large enough to fit a stadium plus additional development. I'm totally cool if that changes, but it would be a pretty big departure from the approach KSG has taken to date.

 

I don’t think Seattle wants a SSS very badly. I don’t recall KC wanting a SSS when they were owned by an NFL guy with his own stadium. I don’t think Atlanta wants a SSS. Certainly 2 of those have done better at filling their FSS for soccer than the Kraft’s have.

All the other guys seem to be motivated by a) They don’t have a stadium to play in (new franchises) b) they are paying rent to play in some other guy’s place (DC for example). So need a home and revenue. Of course they’ll try to position for growth if they shell out for a stadium.

Two stadiums in Metro New York, 2 in LA, 1 in Chicago. But Boston is reallllllllllllly reallllllllly hard! You’ll undoubtedly start pointing out something that isn’t ideal about each of those (see prior post about ideal vs. serious - not mine). The Krafts don’t need a stadium, they have one.

 

Nothing's impossible if you've got enough money and enough imagination.

If Belichick wanted to play on a grass field, they'd be playing on a grass field. Belichick won't be in Foxboro forever.

As for the other stuff, you'd basically be talking about reconstructing the outer shell of the stadium. Attach a retractable roof to the new outer shell, and you can then suspend a new scoreboard from the ceiling above the center of the field. Then, you could take out the end zone scoreboards and construct luxury suites there, if you want.

 

To be fair, if Gillette had been built in the Seaport District, then we'd have been Seattle before Seattle was. I agree with your general take that Kraft has a stadium and he's not going to make extraordinary efforts to build a new one, but his soccer team has a location problem and always has.

 

I agree they have a location problem.

I was reacting to every team wants an urban SSS. A couple teams seem to think they can make a FSS an exciting place to watch soccer too. They certainly don’t seem to want a SSS.

I don’t agree that we’d be Seattle if Gillette had been built in Seaport. The Krafts would still have had to try to make it an exciting place to watch soccer. It isn’t clear to me that they are even trying to do that in Gillette all these years into the league. At least, it isn’t clear to me.

The Krafts have passion about football but lack any for soccer IMHO. Yet another reason why I don’t believe there is much effort associated with their « serious » search for an urban SSS location.

 

The Krafts wanted a grass field. If I recall, I have no reason to assume Belichick prefers turf. The found maintaining the grass was impossible because the stadium was positioned poorly.

As for the other part, I have no idea what it would cost, but I suspect putting up a second stadium nearby would be just as cost effective.