Revolution Stadium Groundbreaking "12-24 months" Part XV

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by Alan, Mar 21, 2017.

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  1. ktsd

    ktsd Member

    Jul 20, 1999
    Bethel, CT, USA
    I took it as 'hard' = spending a lot of energy and effort, not 'hard' = difficult to do.

    My thoughts get obtuse sometimes. Nothing to see here. carry on.
     
  2. VTSoccerFan

    VTSoccerFan Member+

    New England Revolution, Vermont Catamounts, NCFC
    United States
    Jun 28, 2002
    Cary, NC
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have a question for those who know about Rhode Island politics, would the Krafts be able to secure money from the state of Rhode Island to build this stadium? If so, what percentage of the costs do you think Rhode Island would pick up?

    If Rhode Island will pick up the cost or a high percentage of the cost, this might indeed be the sweetheart deal they have been looking for. Consider that, such a deal would
    1. Save the Krafts millions of dollars
    2. Raise the value of the Revs
    3. Raise the potential selling price for the Revs
    4. Make the Revs a much easier team to sell as the stadium question has been answered
    5. This location is close enough to the current location to maintain some percentage of fans who attend a few games a year and to not lose many fans who make the drive for just one game a year
    6. It would make the league happy

    It appears, on a quick thought, that this solution would be good enough for the Krafts given that the Revs are not, IMHO, a team that they are super passionate about.
     
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  3. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    You're making a statement based on all kinds of uninformed assumptions.

    There's no disconnect from them being 'serious', yet holding out for an ideal situation that ticks off their project requirements.
    I don't think anyone can deny that it is 'hard' to find a large, undeveloped parcel in/near downtown Boston, close to frequent public transportation, suitable for a stadium-sized project.

    Delaware North looked for something and ended up doing a large-scale development, land-swap with property they already owned. The Sox explored the idea of a new ballpark, but ended up renovating/improving their current one. The Patriots - well, we all know that story - they were unable to find an urban location either.
     
  4. NFLPatriot

    NFLPatriot Member+

    Jun 25, 2002
    Foxboro, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey! As a software developer, I can assure you that we are capable of delivering on time, on budget, and on spec (pick two).

    :p
     
  5. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Ok, using the phrase "ideal situation" can be problematic. Obviously the ideal for any team owner would be along the lines of: a new, state of the art stadium, with both easy highway access and easy public transit access, that is built with little to no cost for the team. So if you're going to say "ideal", that can easily be disconnected from what people would think is a reasonably "serious" effort. Nobody anywhere doubts that the Krafts would jump on an "ideal" situation if it was presented to them.

    So never mind ideal, when it comes to being "serious", the question is, what is the minimum situation that the team would consider to be "good enough" to sign your names and put shovels in the ground? Taking into account all the factors involved around here, if the minimum requirements are beyond what is reasonable to expect, then it would not be unfair to say that the effort is not "serious".
     
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  6. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Uninformed assumptions based on public statements they have made in the past 10 years. Several times someone named Kraft or someone representing them have described that they need to get the "right" deal to make it work.
    Holding out for an "ideal situation" is like the tactic Jermaine Jones used when he was trying to get a new contract from the Revs for $2 million+ per year. Because he knew he only had a couple more years left as a player, he eventually realized that he better take the $600k and a plane ticket to Colorado, because that was the best deal he could get.

    But the difference is that unlike a player at the end of his career, the Revs do have all day to wait around and hope for something that will never come. There is no rush, and they can keep playing in Foxboro forever. And they will.
     
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  7. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    The bottom line is that there has to be a way to make money from it. They aren't a charitable organization and have never operated as one.

    Looking at what they've done at Gillette, I think the key factors are multi-use/multi-function, along with surrounding development opportunities.

    So, it needs to be in a place close to the urban core, with good public transportation and the opportunities to build under/over/around the stadium revenue-generating assets (parking, entertainment venues, meeting/event spaces).

    It's a hard bill to fill (there's that word again!), but just because that is (or is my perception of) what they are looking for, doesn't make them not 'serious', nor doesn't mean it isn't do-able.
     
  8. MM66

    MM66 Member+

    Mar 9, 2009
    Brookline, MA
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I don't claim to know RI politics well, but 20 years ago I was writing for a newspaper on Nantucket and a RI contractor had won the bid to cap the island's landfill and haul away its trash. I was doing a background story on the contractor, so I called the RI DEP to find out what they knew about the guy. Inside five minutes after I finished that call, my phone rings and it's the contractor, who says he heard I was talking to DEP and is there anything he can help answer for me.

    So, once upon a time, parts of that state government were shady as hell. That's good news if you're trying to get public money to build a stadium.
     
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  9. Argyle

    Argyle Member

    Jan 31, 2002
    Plymouth, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As someone once put it, Rhode Island is a theme park for journalists.
     
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  10. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Well, now we're getting into speculating on what they want, or what their minimum requirements are. I'm fine with speculation, as long as it's understood that it's idle speculation is nothing close to factual analysis. And obviously people are going to disagree on whose speculation is closer to, or further from, being realistic on how serious the team's effort has been.

    Now if we look at your idea, it sounds you are largely basing your speculation on what the Krafts have done in Foxboro, but that is a very different set of circumstances than what we see in Boston. First off, it's a stadium in a more remote, far less populated area, where space is easier to find, and where rent - aka taxes and whatever other location costs there are - would likely be much cheaper. Second, it's a huge stadium designed to be mainly for the Patriots, who have an 8 game regular season, with 2 preseason games, and hopefully a some playoff games every few years or so (sadly, the unbelievable run this century can't be expected to last forever). I'm sure that when they built it, they weren't necessarily planning on having the Revs there, because at that time, it still wasn't certain that MLS would last.forever, and from what we've been told, we've apparently been 12-24 months away from the Revs moving away from Gillette ever since MLS appeared to become more stable.

    Comparing that situation to downtown Boston, I don't think it's reasonable to say that the team should expect to get the same type of setup - a stadium, albeit smaller, with ample parking, and space to build your own shopping center for the off days. Knowing the premium there is on space in a city, it never would have occurred to me that they would be hoping to have similar shopping area setup, even on a smaller scale. I'd think that they would be looking for enough space for a stadium, with not a lot of the footprint given up to parking, they would either have a parking garage that goes up or down, and then enough space for a team store. So for me at least, a minimum plan requires not only space for the stadium, but also space for a separate shopping area, that sounds a bit unreasonable for finding a spot within a city like Boston.

    But forget about the blueprints and the size of the plot, the biggest area of speculation, and disagreement, is about how much of the tab the Krafts want others to pick up. What percentage of the total bill do the Krafts have to be willing to pick up in order for their effort to be considered serious? Obviously if they're willing to pay 95%, most would agree it's serious, vs if it was only 5%, then most would agree it's not serious or realistic.

    For me at least, if someone says they'll only willing do some difficult project when they are given an "ideal situation" in which to do it, that would imply that the person isn't that serious about getting it done. I'm not even saying I think the team will only do it under ideal circumstances, I just disagree with your opinion on how serious an effort is, if an ideal setup is required before moving forward.
     
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  11. rkane1226

    rkane1226 Member+

    Apr 9, 2000
    Club:
    Stade Brestois 29
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which uninformed assumptions? The formulas for ROI are well known, published on the internet and in textbooks, programmed into our spreadsheet applications. The cost of the last several MLS SSS are also published and well known. You can model the ROI based on a reasonable spread of obtainable ticket and parking prices (again based on prices across MLS) and on a reasonable spread of attendance. There is also the data on what the Krafts decided to do about an urban stadium (Boston or elsewhere) when they considered it for a MUCH stronger draw - the Patriots. There is almost 10 years of informed data on how far they’ve gotten every time they’ve said they are serious about a stadium.

    The dictionary.com definition of serious:

    adjective
    1. of, showing, or characterized by deep thought.
    2. of grave or somber disposition, character, ormanner:
    a serious occasion; a serious man.
    3. being in earnest; sincere; not trifling:
    His interest was serious.

    I maintain that when many of us here say the Krafts are NOT serious we are, in a way, agreeing with you on definition 1. The Krafts clearly are applying deep thought and they understand the math. It’s going to take a pretty low probability set of criteria to be achieved before they’ll conclude it makes sense to ink a deal.

    When the Krafts speak about a SSS deal and say things like « soon » or « in 12-24 months » or « by 2019 » then I think, based on an opinion informed by the above listed data and math AND the 10 years of them saying similar things without result, that the Krafts are NOT speaking in earnest. I’m going to go ahead and keep saying they are not serious.
     
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  12. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Personally, I believe that the Krafts being able to wrangle a significant contribution of public funds from the State of Rhode Island towards the development and construction of a soccer-specific stadium for the Revolution to be, at best, a pipe-dream.

    There was a time when, if offered the chance to "do a deal" with the Krafts on a stadium project, politicians in Rhode Island wouldn't have thought twice about throwing the electorate in the Ocean State under the proverbial bus on their way to hobnobbing with Bob and Jonathan and - more importantly - lining their own pockets with the ill-gotten gains to be made from steering jobs on the project towards particular contractors and unions. Truth be told, they might still love to do it.

    That said, though there still might be corruption in the hearts of many of the elected officials who call "Little Rhody" home, the pols are increasingly being served notice by their constituents.

    For instance, consider the prolonged drama surrounding the debate over whether the State of Rhode Island and the City of Pawtucket should pony-up public funds for the construction of a new ballpark to play host to the Pawtucket Red Sox. The plan on the table calls for building a new 9,000 to 10,000-seat ballpark in downtown Pawtucket at a cost of $83 million. Team ownership would be responsible for $45 million of the ballpark's construction cost. The State of Rhode Island would be responsible for $23 million of the tab. The City of Pawtucket would be responsible for $15 million.

    In the past, ground would have already been broken on this project. Various state senators and reps, sundry city councilors and registrars would all be getting their palms greased by union officials and contractors looking to score a piece of the construction pie. However, since the 38 Studios debacle, rank-and-file Rhode Islanders have been turning a rather jaundiced eye towards Rhody political power-brokers playing fast-and-loose with the public purse-strings.

    Nicholas Mattiello, the incumbent Speaker of the Rhode Island House of Representatives, barely held onto his seat in the 2016 state elections, eking out an 85 vote victory over Republican Steve Frias in what was thought to be a safe district. Lo and behold, with the groundswell of sentiment in Rhode Island running against public investment in the construction of a new ballpark for the Paw Sox, this week Speaker Mattiello - who faces what could be a difficult reelection campaign in November - said that the issue should be put before the public in a referendum vote. When an incumbent politician in Rhode Island is so spooked about his reelection prospects that he's distancing himself from a chance to line his pockets on a construction project, you know that the tide is turning.

    All of this is to say that if an $83 million development deal - in which the owners of the team are willing to put up more than 50% of the construction costs - for a 9,000 to 10,000-seat ballpark is having a difficult time gaining traction in Rhode Island, I think it is altogether unlikely that the Krafts are going to be able to convince either Ocean State residents or elected officials to invest a significant amount of public funding into a 20,000 to 25,000-seat soccer-specific stadium for the New England Revolution. After all, it stands to reason that the cost of constructing a stadium for the Revolution is going to be, at least, double that of building a ballpark for the Paw Sox.
     
  13. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well RI did give Curt Schilling $40 million for his company, (which he subsequently blew). So there's a track record of public money at least.
     
  14. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Yes, I mentioned Curt Schilling's "38 Studios debacle" in my post.

    The fact that Schill "subsequently blew" the $40 million in public funds that the State of Rhode Island invested in his video game company is precisely the reason that a significant portion of the electorate in said state is now dead set against the investment of $38 million of public money ($23 million from the state, $15 million from the City of Pawtucket) into the construction of a new ballpark for the Pawtucket Red Sox. And there's absolutely no reason to believe that Ocean State voters would be any more amenable to the idea of significant public funding being invested into the development of a soccer-specific stadium for the New England Revolution.
     
  15. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Investing in the Kraft's and investing in Schilling are very different things.
     
  16. REV IT UP

    REV IT UP Member

    New England Revolution
    United States
    Jul 12, 2004
    San Francisco
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I always shudder at the fact that I came very close to working at 38 Studios many times when first looking to break into the games industry...
     
  17. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Investing in a ballpark development project with a Paw Sox ownership group that numbers Larry Lucchino, former Fleet Financial Group executive Terry Murray, former CVS chief Tom Ryan, T.J. Maxx founder and former TJX chairman of the board Ben Cammarata, Fenway Sports Management, Boston Red Sox partners Arthur Nicholas and Frank Resnek, venture capitalist William Egan, and private equity guru Habib Gorgi is also a "very different thing" than investing in Curt Schilling.

    Despite that difference, a significant portion of the electorate in the State of Rhode Island still hasn't warmed to the idea of having $38 million in public funds invested into the construction of a new $83 million home for the Pawtucket Red Sox. And those voters are making their voices heard in the offices of their elected representatives. Which is why passage of legislation approving public funding for a new Rhode Island Triple-A ballpark - first proposed for Providence, now eyed for Pawtucket - has had a difficult time gaining traction over the nearly three years since the subject was first broached.

    Bottom line? If $38 million in state and local funds to help finance construction of a new home for Rhode Island's beloved Triple-A franchise of 45 seasons is having a tough time winning backing, the odds are slim-to-none of there being a groundswell of support to invest public dollars into a soccer-specific stadium for the Revolution, particularly when said facility is likely to carry a price-tag of between $200 and $250 million.

    The Krafts getting a significant public soccer-specific stadium subsidy in the Ocean State is a pipe-dream.
     
  18. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #343 RevsLiverpool, Jan 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
    I get your point but they are still very different projects. McCoy Stadium is a shit hole. Minor league baseball is a money pit for the public. The PawSox have been operating at a net loss their entire existence. Very few, if any, minor league teams turn a profit. It is frankly stupid and irresponsible to invest in the second level of a sport that has been in slow death spiral for the past decade. The economics won't change, even with a shiny new ball park, regardless of the credibility of the management team.

    In contrast, Major League Soccer, on the other hand, is on a whole different planet in terms of revenue, merchandising, marketing, tv exposure, etc. They would become a stakeholder in the fastest growing league in the United States by doing business with one of the most powerful families in American sports. The revs have broken even or turned a profit for the last 15 years. By building a new stadium in an established market with a pre-existing soccer mad community like Providence, they'd project to continue that trend for years to come. Making a long term investment in a MLS stadium at this point is really a no brainer.

    Look, let me be clear, there is *ALWAYS* going to be risk when investing public money in any infrastructure project. I'm not arguing that.

    However, the likelihood of RI seeing that money paid back exponentially sooner is significantly greater for a MLS level team than the paw sox. Rhode Island's law makers know this and -if they're smart - would be open minded enough to at least sit down with the Krafts.

    Here's hoping they figure something out.
     
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  19. Mike Marshall

    Mike Marshall Member+

    Feb 16, 2000
    Woburn, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FWIW, I still think the most likely scenario is that the Krafts dump a crapload of money into some sort of major Gillette Stadium renovation that makes the place more versatile and more of a year-round destination... including making it more "soccer-friendly". More seats, more suites, maybe a retractable roof, do something with the playing surface, more retail space, etc.

    They've already invested too much money in Foxboro, and the hurdles to build something somewhere else are still too high.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I don't currently see any workable solutions in or around Boston.
     
  20. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Yes, purely my speculation.

    But, they have to find a way to make a plan work financially - especially since they'd have to invest a large amount of $$. Many people seem to think they are requiring significant financial help, but I think they know from experience that isn't likely to happen. So, their focus will be on pairing the project with additional revenue opportunities, since we know that the Revs will have a limited number of dates.

    So, IMO, a stadium +parking lot won't be enough to craft a workable plan.

    And, since there's been a lot of discussion about what serious means, I don't think it's a yes/no issue, it's a level or degree of seriousness. And, I think, they very much want to get something done, but not so much that they are going to settle on something that isn't going to achieve the revenue projections needed to pay off their investment.
     
  21. Revs In First :)

    Aug 15, 2001
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't believe we're even contemplating the prospects of the Krafts potentially considering showing some interest in a possible stadium in Providence, maybe. Dear God.
     
  22. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, the Revs would then be in Providence, not "Boston." Nothing like trading the #6 TV market for the #50 or so. Major League Soccer in a Minor league city. Like when they used to have a ferry going across Lake Ontario from Rochester to Toronto. Lots of people from Rochester would go to a world-class city, but how many people went the other direction?
     
  23. Argyle

    Argyle Member

    Jan 31, 2002
    Plymouth, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think they removed seats to make room for that endzone bar, they put in turf because the grass couldn't get enough sunlight since the stadium was positioned wrong and I have no idea how they put a retractable roof on that thing.

    IOW, and IMHO, I think all three of the things you suggested are basically impossible.
     
  24. Argyle

    Argyle Member

    Jan 31, 2002
    Plymouth, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just guessing, but I doubt the Krafts are seriously considering it either. Jonathan was just blowing smoke for the local press.
     
  25. NFLPatriot

    NFLPatriot Member+

    Jun 25, 2002
    Foxboro, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Krafts using the word "hope" in a sentence is equivalent to the 17 escape clauses they put in their agreement to move to Hartford.
     

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