Cristian Maidana and Vincent Nogueira have been widely hailed on this forum as quality signings by the much maligned Union front office. Last season, many would have argued that Nogueira was the better signing, a linking cog in the middle, both solid on the ball and simple in possession. He had proven himself in France, he came with an air of confidence and exhibited qualities that other Union players lacked. Maidana had more to prove. He had bounced around a bit, had a history of injuries, and seemed to struggle with his fitness. Yet he exhibited a technical ability and creativity that stood out among his peers. There are no question marks remaining, Maidana is our playmaker and his assist numbers make a convincing argument that he is among the best in MLS. Vincent Nogueira passes the eye test. But do the numbers tell a different story? 3 assists in 47 games and none this season. To be fair, he does have 5 goals in this campaign on 18 shots. This is an unsustainable ratio, especially considering he scored twice on 59 shots last season. Now if these numbers were coming from a hard tackling defensive midfielder, they would hardly be noteworthy. But that is far from what he is. We cannot afford to have a defensive liability in the heart of the field, especially when big spending teams continue to splash the cash on top tier offensive talent. It may seem ridiculous to criticize one of the best players on the team. But when a team is this bad, everyone is fair game.
I guess he may be a weak link defensively, but I think his skill and creativity far outweigh that deficiency. Is his contract up at the end of this season? I'm more concerned with keeping him here with Maidana and Barnetta than I am with focusing on his negatives.
The team is all around better when Nogueira is on the field. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have won a league match this year when he doesn't play. Sure he may not have the numbers on the stat sheet, but he opens up space for other players, he is technical on the ball, and he has adapted to the physical play that MLS has. The fact that he may be getting a green card soon is good news that he may be staying, but I don't want to get my hopes up.
He's not a #10. He's a box to box shuttler of the ball. And he's damn good at it. He's not going to get the eyepopping stats of Chaco. This team is terrible without him. It isn't coincidence we can't win without him.
Agreed. I see him as fulfilling that specific role and the team is better with him on the field and in that role. But I also think that his limitations (and there are many) prevent the team from playing other formations and that is a problem with how the roster is constructed.
Zero wins this season w/o Nogs. You must be Sak is disguise. Next you can tell us what a quality signing M'Bohli was.
Well they did win all the marbles against Chicago last week w/o him................. Nogs also setup and assisted on Ayuk's goal in the Open Cup against RBNY............ Noguiera is also one of the few players on this team who isn't afraid to shoot from outside the 6 yd box............. Overall when Noguiera doesn't play, the Union almost always lose. Nogs relieves pressure, and switches the field with his passing. Not to mention him and Chaco play well together. It'll be interesting to see how Nogs, Barnetta and Maidanna play together in the same midefield.
I agree that we're better with him, because the players behind him are awful. Something is seriously flawed with this team and the most glaring problem is goals conceded. I think a Beckerman type in lieu of Nogs would be a step in the right direction. Similar offensive production, similar confidence on the ball and simple passing ability, but much stronger defensively.
They also don't play the same position! Beckerman is a classic Defensive Midfielder. A true number 6. Nogs is an 8, he moves the ball and links the defense with the offense. That's why Nogs and Carroll paired together works so well. If the Union can sign a younger version of BC7 to pair with Nogs, they'd be onto something. The defense is terrible, yes. There are many reasons for why, but Nogs isn't one of them. The fact that this is Marquez' first MLS season, and Edu isn't a true CB is a major factor, as is the shambolic Keeper situation.
Beckerman isn't on the same planet as Nogueira in the attacking game. As a #6, Becks is the man, but Noggy is a box-to-box type of guy. Now Nogueira with Beckerman behind him where Carroll is now would be something to behold. Laugh me off of the forum...but Michael Lahoud is starting to play kinda well lately...
He has played well when he has been healthy, problem is that he hasn't been able to stay healthy during his Union tenure. He'd be a fine backup/sub/utility player. The Union really need a DM in the Ozzie Alonso mold.
I disagree. Their numbers back this up as well. I am not saying Nogs doesn't have an edge offensively, but they share similar abilities in the short passing game, linking up D to midfield. The difference is that the Beckerman 'type' may suit the needs of this team. My thought is a physical, athletic destroyer type D-mid (Yaro?) with another Beckerman type who is also sound defensively, but has possesses good distribution skills.
Yes! If Nogs stays, would you deal Edu? IMHO it should be considered. An Edu/Nogs pairing on paper sounds awesome. In practice, outside of the 2014 USOC Final, it hasn't worked well. For what the Union are paying Mo, that's a lot of coin to pay a MF playing CB. I realize Edu is arguably one of if not the best player on the Union's roster (Natural talent, he makes the game look easy). He's a good CB, but it's not his best position. I think the Union should entertain offers for him, and use those proceeds to find the next Olave/Valdes(pre loan shenanigans) at CB and a true midfield destroyer.
I might be in the minority here, but I do not think that what Edu brings to the table is worth the money he is getting paid as the Union's top DP. I'd rate him as one of the lower end DP's in MLS. That is not to say he doesn't belong here! I still find his technique questionable but appreciate his athleticism and hard work. He really should be playing in one of the spots occupied by Carroll or Lahoud, but obviously that is not happening.
HAHAHAHAHAHAH Sorry let me vomit for a second.... okay I'm back. That guy is lazy and slow. At defender he doesn't have to move as much. I don't "mind" him at defender. Just because he "played" Stoke or Rangers (and tbh Scottish premier league sucks minus Celtic and maybe Aberdeen), doesn't make him a good player. MLS, Sak of Crap, and the fans were fooled. Edu is an average MLS player AT HIS BEST. Not a DP, not a captain, or a guy I want my Midfield anchored by. He collects a big check for not much work and is the Instagram/SnapChat king. Im sure he's a cool dude, nothing against his character. But his onfield play is not all that hype.
While lazy, slow and average are not the first three adjectives that I would pick to desribe him, I agree that we could get a player of his caliber at a much lower salary and certainly below the DP threshold. If Nogs/Edu midfield doesn't work, get rid of one of them. It's a waste of limited resources to have Edu in the back where you are right, he is very pedestrian.
I think you hit on the point I was getting at regarding Edu's calibre / salary level. I view him as a standard MLS player rather than a marquee guy who requires pay above the DP threshold. Nick has constantly championed that they won't be a club to unwisely throw big cash around at a player, but as I see it the Edu signing represents a decision in which the Union spent more money on a player than they needed to or probably should have.
Esq I'm basing it off players on the roster. The criticism of Mo as a DM is that he makes long runs forward that leaves Nogueira hanging. That would fit a box-to-box role in which he is not the anchor. Playing a DM next to him would lessen his defensive duties which mitigates the laziness. At the same time, he would add a big body crashing the box with a late run is something no other player provides. He is also one of the best passers on this team. Mo is certainly not slow compared to other players on this team. He most certainly would be as successful 8 here. Whether he is worth the money is another debate. Again, I prefer Noggy in this role, but Mo would be a good second option there.
Again, the numbers don't tell the full story. If you replace Nogs with a Beckerman-style player we lose an insane amount of creativity out of the back. They play completely different roles. Beckerman is a #6, Nogs is a #8. That's just the way it is. RSL play a completely different formation with Beckerman, which leads him to distribute the ball more than he would in the 4-2-3-1 that we play. If anything, we need a young #6 to play next to Noguiera. You can't just look at stats. I don't see how anyone could have watched this team and see Noguiera as the problem. He's arguably our most important player.
If there was a knock on Nogueira, it was his lack of goals, last year. Right after they started playing we recognized him and Maidana as probably the most skilled players the team has had, but with neither of them scoring very often that amounted to a deficit of goals from the midfield compared to other teams. This year Nogs has improved on his scoring and is one of the few not afraid to try a shot from distance. It's strange he doesn't have any assists this year, maybe just Chaco taking up the slack.
My main point is that I think it would make more sense to have two defensive midfielders, one defense first, physical, athletic, hard tackler, etc. The other would be a link up player more in the mold of Beckerman. From my perspective, Beckerman is a defensive midfielder who is sound defensively and excels in link up play. I've probably watched Beckerman play 15-20 times between RSL and National Team duties and I just don't see this great divide in what he does in link up play and what Nogs does. I was trying to find passing percentages and I came across this page from 2014: http://www.brotherlygame.com/2015/1/2/7272293/season-in-review-vincent-nogueira It talks about usage rates - which "shows what percentage of attempted team passes were attempted by a single player." Unsurprisingly, they are both highly ranked with Nogueira at 15.1% (good for 13th in the league) and Beckerman at 14.9% (15th in the league). I did some quick per 90 minute numbers (MLS) and projected the averages out to a 34 game season: Beckerman: Goals - 3.6 Assists - 4.8 Nogueira: Goals - 5.5 Assists - 2.3 Of course Nog's numbers are a small sample size, but if anything I think that is greatly skewing his goalscoring ability. He only scored 6 goals in 114 at Sochaux which puts him in the Danny Califf realm (haha). Beckerman has double the assist average and this is for a #6 vs. a #8. Assessing 'creativity' is a very abstract task, but ultimately, the purpose of creativity is to create goals. This is not Nogueira's strong suit in any way, shape or form. Having said all of that, I don't see Nogueira as 'the problem'. I just think it makes sense to evaluate every player not only on their individual skill, but on how their skill-set fits into the needs of the team.
Pretty good, really good or good enough - - with this team I'll take any of them. Have so many glaring holes and weaknesses I can't take the time to do anything other than be thankful we have him. I think he'd look a lot better on most other teams in MLS. Right now the Union need to do triage on a dying patient and I'd liken having him on this team to the patient having a broken finger - important to address but not a priority until other areas are fixed
I have a weird bias against Mo. I wouldn't mind the runs forward, i just think he gets caught all the time. Even when he is CB. Not his skill if I'm being unbiased, its his positioning.
Yeah, those are the reasons I don't like him as a 6 on this team. I think this would be minimized if he played as an 8 in midfield with someone like a Carroll playing beside him o cover for his runs. Again, this is in the hypothetical situation where we needed a new 8. I prefer him as a CB.