1. We don't have pro-rel in the USA. We're not gonna have pro-rel in the USA. Get over it. 2. Why on earth would the USL want to welcome a direct local competitor of OKC Energy into the league? 3. Rayo OKC was a bad idea that never should have been implemented. The fact that they were allowed to enter the NASL, and the fact that they're experiencing a quick and predictable demise, should give you serious pause about the efficacy and competence of today's NASL.
We can't stop you. All we can do is point out that pro-rel talk of this sort is stupid and inevitably ruins all meaningful discussion. This thread is shaping up as yet another example of this fact. Hard to believe you've been here since 2000 and haven't figured that out by now. But, fine, you want to distract from actual, pertinent discussion of the state of Rayo OKC and the NASL with some dumb tangent about pro-rel, then go ahead and knock yourself out. In that case, however, I think we need a new thread for the discussion of the state of Rayo OKC and the NASL -- one that's not full of pro-rel nonsense.
There's nothing wrong with discussing the issue of pro/rel as it has impacted Rayo OKC. Just keep the conversations clean and no personal attacks.... However let's not belabor the point about the pro/real discussion that it turns into more of the same as has been outlined ad naseum in other threads....That is all.
My main issue with this is the fact that while the key emphasis in the story is about Rayo Vallecano being regulated, which means less money for the team since they aren't part of La Liga and more than likely won't rejoin for 5-10 years, the TC wants it to be a general pro/rel argument as opposed to discussing the fact that because Rayo doesn't want to support their satellite in OKC anymore, this may put the league in a world of hurt now that Minnesota has officially joined MLS & the league has 2-3 teams struggling with shoddy attendance and lackluster support from the community in terms of finances.
But you are forgetting that Jeff is the real victim here. Nah, not that hard. He just chooses not to. Because pro/rel is magic. And if relegation > the current drama, it stands to reason that not being relegated > being relegated, so not being relegated > the current drama. Especially since pro/rel is no inoculation against drama. This is/was a mismanaged club with absentee owners who know eff-all about the American soccer landscape, based on the comments by front office types. Tell me again how that problem gets solved by the all-magical "results on the field" thing*? *Which is now malleable since it now doesn't have to be based on one season's results and expansion teams can be exempt.
So Rayo put the wrong date on the tickets for Saturday's game and never bothered to tell the fans. Way to go guys.
Screw you Kenn. And yes, my first name is Jeff... don't wear it out. Listen, you've browbeat a number of reasonable people on this forum over the years, including me off-and-on for at least the last three, and I refuse to back down to you. You know, KENN (if that is indeed your real name and not that of a europoseur since you don't spell it the way real 'Murcans spell it)....we could have a reasonable conversation... but you've been such a jagov, you'd actually have to start posting some shit that might be something other than typical holier-than-thou condescension before I'd make any attempt to respond respectfully towards your highness. I've never said Pro/Rel was "magic,"... never ever... in fact, I've posted specifically many times that any discussion of Pro/Rel involving MLS is "pie-in-the-sky" and that Pro/Rel will not create stability in American soccer, it will reflect it.... IOW Kenn, you're flat out lying.... and I refuse to limit my opinions on Pro/Rel to a single isolated thread dedicated to it when there will be times in the current environment that I think it should be part of the general conversation, even if it's only a minor "what if" part of it. It'd be nice to one day have a respectful conversation about the state of lower division soccer with you. But I'm not optimistic of that ever happening. You know that it was those very same "front office types" in OKC who actively recruited Rayo Vallecano over the course of 9+ months in the first place (starting the fall of 2014), because otherwise they wouldn't have ever played an NASL game in OKC/Yukon, don't you? You understand this was a group that started in the PDL with full intention of moving up, preferably to USL. You understand the OKC FC front office/Brad Lund/SOS still claim they were screwed over by Tim Holt playing the role of King Solomon, and the OKC FC people still claim they were given assurances by USL that turned out to be false while preparing for their first season in the PDL in early 2013. You understand there were TWO financially competent ownership groups from the same market in OKC who both wanted to compete in the USSF's third division and both met the requirements to do so. But a league entity named USL made a decision favoring one over the other, subsequently sent cease-and-desist letters to the other group after that group went to a rival professional league designated as USSF's second division, all because they were blocked from joining the third division due to that league's right to grant and restrict territorial rights. If you're a fan of irony, nothing could be as ironic as this clusterfark. A local OKC group who starts a PDL club is shutout from competing in the next higher division due to an administrative decision despite that club's financial wherewithal and commitment. That group is forced to financially leap frog the other group, and is granted an expansion franchise into the second division NASL because joining the third division is no longer an option.... lawsuits follow. The lead investor for the NASL group defects to the USL group, and is charged with double-crossing the NASL group... lawsuit from the NASL... OKC FC plays in the NPSL before deciding to fold the club and pursue Rayo V to replace Tim McLaughlin as majority owner so they can enter the NASL. Rayo V is ironically relegated and tells Rayo OKC of budget cuts and the laughable desire to bus the OKC club to all remaining road games. If America had a reasonably stable pro soccer pyramid that included Promotion/Relegation, OKC FC could have started out in the third division, ditto to Rayo OKC who could have either started in the more appropriate third division, or could have voluntarily relegated themselves to the third division level from the second division NASL after the Spanish club was relegated... But this is America... so this club will either fold or relocate, Sean Jones will have lost his shirt, @ManuSooner will not have his local team to root for at any level, and Sold Out Strategies will likely find themselves blacklisted from working on behalf of any USL teams... and yes, I've probably been SOS's biggest critic, ironically enough.
What do you have to say about the fact that your chosen structure is managing to kill a team off half a world away?
Red Bulls? Actually the Red bull putting their money on the German team promotion has not been bad for the NJ team, they seem to play better now than when they had tje big name DPs. We can blame OKC on 2 things that is hated around here, child clubs of Foreign bigger clubs and pro/rel. ChivasUSA did not go under* because of pro/rel in Mexico, it was mostly due to the stepbrother status. *Forced sale.
First off, thanks for recognizing bigsoccer's hatred of pro/rel. I guess you could blame Rayo V's relegation but you'd be wrong. You can only come to that conclusion if you don't appreciate the full context of the OKC FC/Brad Lund/SOS story. A stable domestic system that included the option to start at a lower level, build a winning club with a loyal fanbase, and win promotion to the third division was not an option available to OKC FC so they made the far riskier decision to pursue foreign investment to play in the demonstrably more expensive second division NASL because that was their only way they felt they could effectively compete with Energy FC/Funk Jr/Prodigal. "@bwfast: Closed division 1, no promotion/relegation U.S. soccer kills USA soccer clubs. #ProRelforUSA pic.twitter.com/M5VfRJ5ujw" bummer.— peter wilt (@PeterWilt1) August 24, 2016
So a APL semi-pro team folds in North Dakota and its a lack of pro\reg that causes it!?! An under capitalized owner and anemic fan base is the most likely culprit not the lack of pro\reg. I doubt if they were "promoted" to NPSL or PDL they'd still be around. It's always about money and or lack of it that causes these clubs to fold and being promoted to a "higher" level that still doesn't make you any extra money and will probably increase expenses isn't going to make these clubs survive as a matter a fact they'd fold at a much faster rate if we had pro/reg in this country as it stands.
Soccer is not lucrative enough to make pro/rel relevant on survivability of lower level teams. It would have an effect on MLS teams, but it wouldn't be a positive one.
My reason for posting the tweet is its author: Peter Wilt. There are plenty of folks in American soccer who see Pro/Rel as a suitable long term goal, even if it's not currently viable. I believe Rayo OKC would have a far better chance of survival in a third division USL playing against several MLS2 clubs each season and taking bus trips to most road games rather than continuing in a second division NASL.
Their argument is that if there was pro/rel ... investors would come out of the woodwork to save the club and move it forward. But they can promote via $$ just like they would need to do to move up anyway. Promotion isn't impossible in this country.
Except for the fact that this situation and the Parent Club's efforts (or lack there of) didn't shift/change/turn course until they were relegated. There is a direct correlation that occurred. You come to the conclusion by the facts of the matter. Rayo's financial concerns are a direct result of their relegation. That directly impacts RayoOKC and is the cause of things now. That's not an assumption, a guess, or trying to paint a picture that doesn't exist. 1+1=2 sometimes. It happens.
1. They'd be forced to relocate, rather than honor their commitment to OKC and move to a more financially appropriate third division USL based on their newly downsized commitment. 2. I doubt they'd do any better in Albuquerque or San Diego if they decide to call all the shots from Spain. 3. Clubs that fold and/or relocate are an indictment against the current closed system.
I am pretty sure teams to fold in a pro/rel system too. The system isn't the issue, the issue is money.
Not as likely and not as often IMO. In a closed system, a league like USL can choose one group over another and force the other group into exile. In an open system, there'd be two USL clubs in OKC since both were able to meet the standards, they'd have a financially more viable rivalry between the two clubs than the disadvantage OKC FC/Rayo OKC had in being forced to either join a league with far higher player salaries, travel costs, and general payroll or stay in an amateur summer league like PDL/NPSL with no chance to "move up" because another group already has territorial rights to the higher division. My NPSL club faces this very problem and will have to wait for the current 3rd division club to fold or relocate before we have any reasonably viable opportunity to advance the sport here in Tulsa.
They wouldn't need to relocate if they really wanted in USL ... they wouldn't have ever put a team in the same market as a USL team in the first place if that's what their business model showed worked better for them. If it only takes you a year to realize you can't afford NASL ... you shouldn't have joined in the first place and found a place that made sense. That's not an issue with our system as much as it is with their decision makers.
So you're rather have 2 teams in the same league struggling than one (which might be able to prosper or at least survive)? Sure they may both meet standards, but does it make sense to risk both clubs revenues to compete head to head in the same market when neither may be able to survive even on their own? Not sure I buy it.