Racism

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by BioChemist13, Oct 13, 2002.

  1. Mobile

    Mobile New Member

    Jul 29, 2002
    Melbourne
    That's only interesting if you ignore the fact that the FA and English clubs in general have never tried to pretend that the problem at English grounds has entirely gone away and in fact have always maintained that they are aware a racist element still exists. Of course there are still incidents of racism at English grounds but the fact is that we have taken enormous strides towards eradicating the problem, to the point where examples of racist abuse are noticeable as being in the minority. In Bratislava, believe me it was the entire home crowd making monkey noises at Heskey.
     
  2. trobinson

    trobinson New Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    This is quite funny. Sometimes I honestly feel that people forget about the whole point of the soccer leagues and games. I wonder to myself the following things:
    1) At what point does a person switch from the love of the game and wanting to see it played in its highest and most entertaining form to wanting to settle for something sub par based off looks and the need to "identify" with the player?
    2) When does a 'true" soccer fan fail to connect with someone who loves the same game as you, plays at a level which you have not reached, commited his whole life to be the best at the game so he can compete and entertain the 'true' soccer fan like oneself solely because he was not born on the same soil as you were?
    3) When has a true competitor or a true fan learned to no longer respect an opponent, to see ones opponent on equal ground, to see a man much like yourself that has followed the same path as you, hung the same posters of past soccer stars on their wall, practiced in the rain for the love of the game like you have, that marks the date on the calendar that the world cup starts like you do because he speaks a different language? 4) When have non-racists, football loving, working class people settled for anything less than encouragement to people that hold the form of the game you love at their feet? How can a true soccer fan except racism? Are we moving forawrds or backwards in the advancement of our game?

    In America, a truly racist place, fans have learned to respect the game. Fans here have accepted all players in our sports, whether basketball, baseball, soccer or football because we have learned that its not the player but its the game that we came to watch. Why settle for less than the best? If black players did leave european football, who would lose? I think the fans. The European game would take a huge blow. What drives a fan to make fun of a player to the point that the player would rather leave the field and no longer play soccer than listen to the fan's bigotry like Henry has threatened? When will europe learn?
     
  3. DamonEsquire

    DamonEsquire BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 16, 2002
    Kentucky
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The carousel is eventful to point. However, we commonly see ownership of land; while our governments' circularize trustworthiness. The anonymities is still of divide. Is a prerequisite proactive increase relatively a decrease of action? Action being of land. In common, one takes and one gives. While government losses nothing, how is this trickery uncommon?

    The quizzical appointment leadings of race and race falls into 'Racism'. Go wrong and under fire, two idioms transpire. The wrongness is blameing 'Racism' and the fire unseen by realism of crime. Unanswered unreciprocated I still have question. What crime has been commited? It's surely not 'Racism'.
     
  4. Mobile

    Mobile New Member

    Jul 29, 2002
    Melbourne
    OK - now you say Ameica is a truly racist place - I don't know if that is true or not. But suppose it is, and suppose 'Europe' (and we really do need to drive the point home that Europe is not one country or even anything other really than a useful geographical description) is just as racist a place. Has it occurred to you that the racists in Europe simply express themselves at sporting events while the racists in America express themselves in other ways (like with, I don't know, graffiti or something)? I really don't see that it makes a difference, unless you are suggesting it is somehow better to have a society where the racists write nasty things on walls rather than chanting slogans at football games.
     
  5. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The fact that this had become such an issue is a good thing, but one downside is that it gives a rather skewed impression of the situation over here. Maybe you believe that all Europeans grounds are seething couldrons of racial hatred, where every black players touch is greeted by a crescendo of boos, whistles and obscene gestures, but then again maybe you don't. I'm sure if violence became a big issue again you'd get a similar letters page full of people who'd seen violent incidents, but that doesn't mean that violence is the norm, or indeed anywhere near it.
    It is traditional for crowds to single out players (normally the other teams best players) for abuse to try to put them off. They don't want to see the opposition's player's skills, they want to see their team win. If abused players leave the field the only people they'll be hurting are themselves and their team. If Arsenal's black players at PSV had walked off then the racists would regard it as a victory, and Arsenal's chance of victory would have diminished.

    Attitudes are not going to change overnight, but they will change.
     
  6. trobinson

    trobinson New Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    Man..I dont really even know where to start. Did you read the post? First and foremost, I am very aware that Europe is not one country. I hope most people know that. However, I am talking about sports and sport fans. Both Europeans and Americans show racism outside of sport venues. It's true whether you know it or not. However, in the US sport venues, the fans want to watch the game played at the best and highest level possible. They promote players rather than insult them because they love the game and the players competing are blessing them with seeing the game played at the highest level possible.
    Racism is stupid! One reason is that the players that you are being racist to in many way share more things in common with you than many people of your own race. If you were a player, than you went through similar experiences, you grew up loving the same game probably watching the same matches etc. Really the only difference you might have is the skin color. Making racist remarks is so elementary. Is a player that good where you can't make fun of him without using racist remarks? If so, then maybe you should be taking notes and be excited just to watch him play rather than try to distract him or make fun of him. Racist remarks tell you nothing about the player, but only about the man that you are making fun of, therefore, shouldn't be allowed in sport venues.
    You asked if I thought the american society is more advanced because racism is taken out of sport venues. I have to say yes. In America, sports has been the biggest avenue of increasing awareness about different races and decreasing racism. Sports are the only place where you can people from many walks of life coming together and forced to work together to succeed. In the NFL it is very common to have a team with black kids that were born in the inner city working with white kids from suburbia or a baseball team having a white player, central american player and black player playing together. When it comes to soccer, many European countries have been blessed enough to make the mixture of races and paths of life even more worldwide. (ie EPL) But instead of fostering the mixture, the players are ridiculed for their differences, further spreading bigotry and preventing true cohesiveness on a team. This sort of actions do not seem like actions of an advanced sport society, but rather one that is regressing.
     
  7. trobinson

    trobinson New Member

    Jul 25, 2002
     
  8. Mobile

    Mobile New Member

    Jul 29, 2002
    Melbourne
    Then you need to stop describing 'Europe' and 'Europeans' as some collective entity. This has been gone over before, but an Irishman, an Englishman, a Pole and a Spaniard are all 'Europeans' but may well have entirely different views on almost every aspect of life. You can't lump us all together to quite the same extent that you can 'Americans'.

    OK - I see where you are coming from now. But I would disagree with the contention that attitudes to racism within sport in this country (I can only really speak for England) are regressing. 20 years ago racist abuse at English grounds was just as widespread as it was in Bratislava 2 weeks ago among the Slovakian crowd, but our clubs and the FA have gone an awfully long way to reducing the problem, as I said before, to the extent that it is now a minority problem. It is not a case of 'when will Europe learn?', but rather a question of the stage that the various nations which make up Europe have reached in addressing the issue. There are varying degrees of racist problems in Europe and, we are not a single state with conforming views and conditions, that was the point I wanted to make.
     
  9. trobinson

    trobinson New Member

    Jul 25, 2002
     
  10. Horizon

    Horizon New Member

    Nov 20, 2000
    New York City
    Same with Americans. You cannot lump us all together, because America is not a country, it is a huge continent that includes all the countries from Argenting to Canada.
     
  11. Mobile

    Mobile New Member

    Jul 29, 2002
    Melbourne
    OK, fair enough - you're clearly aware of that point but in this case I think it is a fairly importnat issue, since there are hugely varying degrees of racism in Europe.

    I would say the measures have made a difference, yes (again speaking only for England). But it isn't just the actions of the clubs and the proliferation of non-white players in England, it is the fact that large-scale immigration has made us a multicultural society. To again make the comparison with Slovakia, I did not see a single non-white face when I was in Bratislava - that must be at least as much of a contributing factor to racist attitudes as the actions of clubs towards removing the problem.

    I can't speak for 'Europe' as a whole but I can say that the problem of racism at English football grounds has decreased hugely. The recent issues surrounding English players abroad has of course served to highlight the problem in other areas, as well as reminding us that we still have some way to go before it is eradicated at home.
     
  12. trobinson

    trobinson New Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    Agreed. I do feel like England is closer to correcting the problem relative to other European countries. But doesn't this seem like something that should have been dealy with years ago? We are in the 21st century for crying out loud!
     
  13. Danwoods

    Danwoods Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    Bertram, TX, US
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If the Europeans don't accept our views on racism we should just bomb them, take their oil, and teach them the right way to think.

    Sincerely,
    George
     
  14. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Morally, yes. Just my $0.02. Some would argue that they created an entirely new nation, but the displacement of so many people, both here and in Africa, cannot be ignored.

    BTW, you never answered my question about whether players of color endure racist taunts from fans of the team they play FOR (especially in Serie A). As I said, it's tough to keep up with every aspect of the game here in the States- FSW and the web are all we have.
     
  15. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It (talking specifically in the sporting context) wasn't an issue years ago as there weren't any black players anywhere in Europe. Black people were far and few between. My mum, growing up in the 50s, once said that people would stop and stare if they actually saw a black person in the street, it was that rare.

    The rise in East European racism has largely come about since the collapse of communism, coupled with the resultant unemployment caused by exposure of those countries to much better economic neighbours. There has historically been a link between failing economies and intense nationalism (in its worst form), often encouraged by the governments of the time. I know there are many who may see racism as a throwback to colonial feelings of superiority etc, but when did Slovakia ever have an Empire? You also didn't used to get such racial abuse in the past in the East (or crowd violence for that matter) so I'd agree that Eastern Europe has regressed (or at least gone down a road that it hadn't gone down before) but I'd argue that most of the rest of the continent is moving in the right direction. What happened at PSV was shocking, but it wasn't normal. Had it been normal nobody would have commented on it. Lazio are often mentioned as a case proving that European football is racist, but they are just one club with a right wing following. Roma, in the same city, strangely don't have the same reputation.
     
  16. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Hard to really say about Serie A as I don't know Italian so I couldn't tell you what fans are singing - although most people have heard about Lazio's reputation.

    In England I remember about 20 years ago a young black player called paul cannoville got abuse from his own fans at Chelsea, but that attitude, even at Chelsea, is long gone. There are probaly very few, if any, totally white teams in England any more, but noboby seems remotely bothered by this (or even notices) so I'd have to say, in England at least, players never get racial abuse from their own fans.
     
  17. Lawmill

    Lawmill New Member

    Fever Pitch had the right idea: the home team's keeper voluntarily walks off the pitch the minute there's a single instance of bigotry. No more signs, no more chanting, no more taunts on the field. Will it happen? No.

    Auriaprottu said:

    You're thinking of Lillian Thuram. He did not go to Lazio after leaving Parma largely because of their reputation.

    Trobinson said:

    People of African descent seem to face less racism, but residents from the Indian subcontinent take a lot of abuse in England. I heard a lot of racial slurs during my time in the UK.
     
  18. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    You're right and my comment was a little harsh...Read first then post...;)
     
  19. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    A few years ago my cousin stopped taking his sons the Chelsea for that reason.
    I’m happy to hear things have changed for the better there.
     
  20. Roel

    Roel Member

    Jan 15, 2000
    Santa Cruz mountains
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    If only racism and bigotry could be cured by posting on Big Soccer! It's got to be stamped out where ever you see it.
     

Share This Page