If the kid mutters "that was a %#%# bad call" it is one thing. But once he puts "you" into a cursing comment at the referee, he needs to go. There is a big difference once the player/coach/spectator makes it a personal comment.
Neither does whether or not you and the perpetrator are be only ones that hear something that is a clear cut send off. Which all of the things we have mentioned are without question.
Yes, the "you" makes it personal, but again, the point is that you have multiple tools to deal with issues like this. You can simply send the player off or you can manage the player. It all depends on the player, the temperature of the game and your own bandwidth/capability to manage the situation.
Look, if you want to be a simple black and white and no grey area referee, that's fine, but it's also kind of ironic that someone who goes by "Fair Play For Life" doesn't take advantage of other tools he has available to fairly serve the game.
Even though I think this is all just taking the P..., let me ask you... A player says to you and only you that you're a F***ing idiot, very quietly. How are you suggesting this be "managed" without a send-off? What tools are you going to use that help this 16-year-old boy? I, personally, think you're nuts, but I'm asking you to convince me. Don't just say "use the tools", explain in detail, change my mind.
You find it ironic that someone with the name FairPlay for life would want a send off for all racist comments? That’s... well idiotic frankly.
We were discussing the F word. Not all racist comments. There is a difference between a racist comment and calling someone a racist or suggesting that something they might have done might be seen as racist. There is a difference between a public and provocative and personal use of the F word and something muttered that is hardly provocative and certainly not public. Good referees know the differences and use their skills and tools to manage each instance for the good of the game. That is Fair Play.
It's quite simple actually and I have done it numerous times. It's usually with a player has had frustration building and the game temperature is rising. You make a call or non-call that the player doesn't agree with and as you are turning up field the player mutters "you are a ********ing idiot" or something to that effect. You can immediately dismiss the guy and possibly watch your game go down the toilet because the last thing your game needs at that moment is a soft red card out of the blue; you can ignore it because only you heard it; or you can engage the player. Engaging him goes something along the line of "what did you just say?" Or "did you just say what I think you said?" Gauge the player's response. If they are immediately apologetic and recognize they screwed up, have a conversation about keeping things respectful. Be calm and stern if necessary, but recognize the player is frustrated. You are trying to gauge whether you can bring the player back into the game mentally as he recognizes that you have cut him some major slack and are a fair referee. If he explodes, well then just straight dismiss him. You have allowed him to confirm that he is done. This isn't something you just go out and do. This comes from evaluating and thinking about every card that you give and asking yourself the question of could I have managed this better? Could I have made a call earlier that avoided the need for a card. Could I have de-escalated the tensions and avoided having to book or dismiss someone. These are the skills that take you from 6 to 5 and higher.
Sorry. Disagree that these are appropriate with a 16-year-old in this context. In a youth game, IMHO, this is a straight send off every time. Some things can/should be managed. Others should simply have consequences.
Decision to or how to manage depends on the level of play, maturity of the player and a variety of factors. Anyway, no need to get wrapped up in 16 year old vs 18 year old. The whole reason for this discussion was the assertion by some that the only option when called a racist was dismissal which then turned into if a player whispers something at you that you must dismiss these people.
This is like School House Rock for arbiters Crash Davis: That's a cock sucking call! Umpire: Did you call me a cock sucker?
I'm catching up, but I would suggest that if his player is saying something on the field, during a match, to an opponent, and a debate over whether or not it's too politically correct even has to occur -- he needs to learn how to shut up.
This is insane, I am sorry (ok, I'm not). U16 boys? I'll let an adult amatuer tell me I am a f***** idiot and talk him out of it and move on. But U16? Let's talk about this. What do you do when another kid does it? Do you do the same thing? Is it now just a free-for-all that kids in your game get one "get out of jail free" card to tell you you're a f***** idiot? Let's take it another step further. You're clearly in the minority here on this topic. What happens to that kid when he goes to his next match and he now thinks that it's just a verbal warning to tell a referee he's a f**** idiot and he is getting sent off by a referee who knows how to appropriately handle these situations at a U16 level. Now this player is left thinking "what in the world is the standard here?". I appreciate your whole sentiment of man management. But you're talking about man management things at a Grade 6 and 5 levels, which starts to apply to levels much past a U16 boys YOUTH game.
Not saying you are wrong, but again, the world isn't black and white (ironic, considering the original intent of the thread). Adult amatuers know fully well what they are doing, and it isn't likely their first time. For that 15-yo player, it could be a first time (but probably not) 'daring' to do something like this, testing boundaries. It seems more logical to make it that 'learning moment.' Its for those very reasons that our criminal justice system has juevee court. All he was saying is what is the situation? Is there immediate remorse? Its just game management. He never ruled out that a red card may be appropriate, but a yellow, a strict talking to, announcing to everyone on the field that this won't happen again by anyone may be all that is necessary to get the game back on track and have a player learned lesson And man management skills of a grade 6 is useful at U-16 level / varsity soccer level where they start acting more like adults.
I will give you the point as a whole that the world isn't black and white. But a U16 kid calling you (the referee) a f***** idiot is black and white. Plain and simple.
Why is not black and white for an adult amatuer then? They are likely the one that will never change.
It really should be the same. But because we keep having these “man management” discussions we allow more and more BS to be something to manage rather than punish as the laws dictate.
so in other words, 'use all the tools available to you.' As a side note, at the first sign of dissent in a youth match my return line is 'if I want dissent from a teenager, I could have just stayed home with my own kids.' Not always, depending on the who, what, why of the situation, but that one usually goes over well.
I used to sometimes go with "Just for my clarification, are you arguing with my call?" That worked pretty well until the time I got a 15-year-old who looked at me like a deer in headlights and said "Um ... yeah?" I said "Wrong answer" and then thought aw, jeez...
I’m not arguing we go painting the town with yellow and red. More that when we reach a certain line it should be universal. The level of dissent and abuse referees take is a problem of our own making.