Racism...Forever?

sitruc · Jul 15, 2019

Decent thread. I was going to make a similar point on the US men's board until I realized that I was on that board and said ******** it and left.

Some context around this quote: of *course* “racist” means something, and its v important to name things as such; it describes the material realities/relations of the world we inhabit.

The problem i was describing here is how white ppl frame the threshold for it. https://t.co/PILy8LoG0h
— The LeBron James of Pig Feet. (@GeeDee215) July 15, 2019

JohnR · Jul 15, 2019

When Donald Trump (and Junior) say that people of color who are born in this country aren't real Americans, but never say the same thing about white people, I think we need to say that is "racist." It is racist. To say otherwise is to rob the word of its meaning.

That's different than, say, somebody complaining about Kaepernick kneeling before flag, which might well be racist (my guess is mostly, at least to some extent) but which conceivably could not be. Trump's statement cannot be interpreted any other way as an attack on skin color.

InTheSun · Jul 15, 2019

My daughter gave me a pretty good explanation: Imagine you lived your life over again and everything about you was the same - income, intelligence, work ethic, etc. except you were a POC. Would you be where you are?

Cascarino's Pizzeria · Jul 15, 2019

JohnR said: ↑

The underlying issues associated with "white privilege" are accurate and need to be discussed, but the term itself is unhelpful. It does not succeed at convincing those who are not already convinced. They hear the term and shut down.
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White Luck?

JohnR · Jul 15, 2019

Cascarino's Pizzeria said: ↑

White Luck?
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The next time that telling people that they shouldn't complain because they have it great wins their vote, will be the first time.

Cascarino's Pizzeria · Jul 15, 2019

JohnR said: ↑

The next time that telling people that they shouldn't complain because they have it great wins their vote, will be the first time.
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I'd say the focus should be on economic anxiety again.

And has that opioid crisis ended yet?

JohnR · Jul 15, 2019

Cascarino's Pizzeria said: ↑

I'd say the focus should be on economic anxiety again.
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That is Elizabeth's Warren strategy (and Bernie's, of course). It might work in the general election. Whether she can get out of the primaries pushing racial issues to the background, I am not so sure about that.

roby · Jul 15, 2019

JohnR said: ↑

When Donald Trump (and Junior) say that people of color who are born in this country aren't real Americans, but never say the same thing about white people, I think we need to say that is "racist." It is racist. To say otherwise is to rob the word of its meaning.

That's different than, say, somebody complaining about Kaepernick kneeling before flag, which might well be racist (my guess is mostly, at least to some extent) but which conceivably could not be. Trump's statement cannot be interpreted any other way as an attack on skin color.
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I was born in the USA of immigrant parents from Italy. There are many many Black persons who can trace their USA roots back 8+ generations. Up is down...down is up!

argentine soccer fan · Jul 15, 2019

charlie15 said: ↑

Dude, seriously, you can't be that dense. Anyway, I will kindly invite you to read this article that perfectly covers it.

https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/fall-2018/what-is-white-privilege-really

"And white privilege is not the assumption that everything a white person has accomplished is unearned; most white people who have reached a high level of success worked extremely hard to get there. Instead, white privilege should be viewed as a built-in advantage, separate from one’s level of income or effort."
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Thanks for the link.

I don't presume to understand the African American experience, but I don't think you should be calling me dense. We all tend to naturally measure evil by the evil we've personally experienced. That is true of me, and I would imagine it's true of Auriaprottu and you as well. That is why it is important for us to have dialogue, without resorting to insults like calling somebody dense, or saying that he doesn't know or understand what he's talking about.

I certainly learned a lot from listening to what people here have to say, including Auriaprottu, because he's experienced things I have not.

I was responding to this.

Auriaprottu said: ↑

They were handed the right to walk outdoors, drive at night, visit restaurants without being harassed, park in their driveways and garages without being harassed, BBQ on a park grill without being harassed, sell lemonade without being harassed, yada.

You probably think of those things as rights, which is maybe where we're disagreeing. Since I don't have those rights in practice, I tend to think of them as privileges.
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Yes, as I said, I do see those things as basic human rights to fight for, and that is because I grew up in a society in which we did not have them. I grew up in a society in which the government on a whim could kidnap you, rape you, stick a hungry rodent up your ass, and then when they were done with you throw you from an airplane into the ocean, just because maybe you had lunch with somebody who owned a book that the government didn't approve of.

I may not have experienced being stopped by a racist cop with a gun, but I've experienced riding on a train, having a bunch of armed soldiers stop the train and ask me for my national ID card. I remember seeing the arrogant face of the milico studying my card, knowing full well that he could make me disappear if he chose to. (Thankfully I didn't know about the gerbils back then, but I did know what they were capable of.) I experienced what it's like to be held from school because of life threats against our family, and I experienced having rocks thrown at us because my parents were evangelicals in what was then a 95 percent Catholic country.

As a teenager, I was able to join a couple of marches against our evil government, chanting about the dissapeared, the corruption and the unnecessary war in the Malvinas, knowing full well the possible consequences.

So, I think I have earned the right to discuss what I consider to be a lack of basic human rights that goes beyond white privilege, and to talk about our need to fight for these rights, and to be able to give my perspective, without being told that I am dense and I don't know what I'm talking about.

I don't know what experience you personally had with human evil, and I would imagine it is different than mine, so I welcome your input, and I want to listen to you. I also get that neither you nor Aurioprottu nor anybody else owes me any explanation for how you feel or what you believe, but I do think this is a public forum in which we can exchange ideas and experiences and learn to understand each other better. I just ask that we treat each other with respect and learn from each other's experiences instead of putting each other down. Thank you.

Cascarino's Pizzeria · Jul 15, 2019

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Thanks for the link.

I don't presume to understand the African American experience, but I don't think you should be calling me dense. We all tend to naturally measure evil by the evil we've personally experienced. That is true of me, and I would imagine it's true of Auriaprottu and you as well. That is why it is important for us to have dialogue, without resorting to insults like calling somebody dense, or saying that he doesn't know or understand what he's talking about.

I certainly learned a lot from listening to what people here have to say, including Auriaprottu, because he's experienced things I have not.

I was responding to this.

Yes, as I said, I do see those things as basic human rights to fight for, and that is because I grew up in a society in which we did not have them. I grew up in a society in which the government on a whim could kidnap you, rape you, stick a hungry rodent up your ass, and then when they were done with you throw you from an airplane into the ocean. just because maybe you had lunch with somebody who owned a book that the government didn't approve of.

I may not have experienced being stopped by a racist cop with a gun, but I've experienced riding on a train, having a bunch of armed soldiers stop the train and ask me for my national ID card. I remember seeing the arrogant face of the milico studying my card, knowing full well that he could make me disappear if he chose to. (Thankfully I didn't know about the gerbils back then, but I did know what they were capable of.) I experienced what it's like to be held from school because of life threats against our family, and I experienced having rocks thrown at us because my parents were evangelicals in what was then a 95 percent Catholic country.

As a teenager, I was able to join a couple of marches against our evil government, chanting about the dissapeared, the corruption and the unnecessary war in the Malvinas, knowing full well the possible consequences.

So, I think I have earned the right to discuss what I consider to be a lack of basic human rights that goes beyond white privilege, and to talk about our need to fight for these rights, and to be able to give my perspective, without being told that I am dense and I don't know what I'm talking about.

I don't know what experience you personally had with human evil, and I would imagine it is different than mine, so I welcome your input, and I want to listen to you. I also get that neither you nor Aurioprottu nor anybody else owes me any explanation for how you feel or what you believe, but I do think this is a public forum in which we can exchange ideas and experiences and learn to understand each other better. I just ask that we treat each other with respect and learn from each other's experiences instead of putting each other down. Thank you.
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What happened to all of Argentina's black people? I hear it's like Idaho down there.

charlie15 · Jul 15, 2019

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Thanks for the link.

I don't presume to understand the African American experience, but I don't think you should be calling me dense. We all tend to naturally measure evil by the evil we've personally experienced. That is true of me, and I would imagine it's true of Auriaprottu and you as well. That is why it is important for us to have dialogue, without resorting to insults like calling somebody dense, or saying that he doesn't know or understand what he's talking about.

I certainly learned a lot from listening to what people here have to say, including Auriaprottu, because he's experienced things I have not.

I was responding to this.

Yes, as I said, I do see those things as basic human rights to fight for, and that is because I grew up in a society in which we did not have them. I grew up in a society in which the government on a whim could kidnap you, rape you, stick a hungry rodent up your ass, and then when they were done with you throw you from an airplane into the ocean.

I may not have experienced being stopped by a racist cop with a gun, but I've experienced riding on a train, having a bunch of armed soldiers stop the train and ask me for my national ID card. I remember seeing the arrogant face of the milico studying my card, knowing full well that he could make me disappear if he chose to. (Thankfully I didn't know about the gerbils back then, but I did know what they were capable of.) I experienced what it's like to be held from school because of life threats against our family, and I experienced having rocks thrown at us because my parents were evangelicals in what was then a 95 percent Catholic country.

As a teenager, I was able to join a couple of marches against our evil government, chanting about the dissapeared, the corruption and the unnecessary war in the Malvinas, knowing full well the possible consequences.

So, I think I have earned the right to discuss what I consider to be a lack of basic human rights that goes beyond white privilege, and to talk about our need to fight for these rights, and to be able to give my perspective, without being told that I am dense and I don't know what I'm talking about.

I don't know what experience you personally had with human evil, and I would imagine it is different than mine, so I welcome your input, and I want to listen to you. I also get that neither you nor Aurioprottu nor anybody else owes me any explanation for how you feel or what you believe, but I do think this is a public forum in which we can exchange ideas and experiences and learn to understand each other better. I just ask that we treat each other with respect and learn from each other's experiences instead of putting each other down. Thank you.
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Noted and apologies for using that word. That was uncalled for.
Hope you read the article as well. It is very informative and give some specific examples of how white privilege manifests itself in every day's life, particularly for POC.
I could myself give you countless examples, from being followed in a department store, to being asked for my legal status by a traffic police officer who stopped me because I was driving a BMW. By the way, his first question was "Whose car is this"? He also told me he stopped me just for a routine check not for any traffic violations. That "driving while black" story is part and parcel of our plight in this world and I could go on and on.
There is a reason that black and brown families have what we call "the talk" with our kids/nephews/ nieces. Ever heard of this? Google it!
I can bet that never happens with white kids. As a matter of fact, it always amaze me how belligerent white people can be with police officers, something that most of us know well that could cost us our life.

PS. By the way, I love Argentina. Been there often! Was in BA's and Mendoza during Easter!

ceezmad · Jul 15, 2019

Cascarino's Pizzeria said: ↑

What happened to all of Argentina's black people? I hear it's like Idaho down there.
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No 'one drop rule' thing in Latin America, so inter racial marriage means lots of white folk in Argentina have ancestors that were decedents of slaves.

Now, they did a "great" job at ethnically cleansing all the Amerindians, not as much as Uruguay, but close.

argentine soccer fan · Jul 15, 2019

Cascarino's Pizzeria said: ↑

What happened to all of Argentina's black people? I hear it's like Idaho down there.
Click to expand...

Let me answer based on what I've learned and think, and a historian is welcome to dispute what I say, since I'm not a historian myself.

There were black slaves in Argentina during colonial times and in the early days of the new nation. From what I understand, there were not too many, because we never had an economy based on slavery - like Brazil, the West Indies or the US South for example - and because being as we were at the very bottom of South America without gold or silver, there were few colonizers overall compared to say Mexico or Peru. Few whites, as well as few blacks. Slaves were primarily bought as household servants for the rich, or part of the sex trade. Some slaves escaped to the wild pampas, mixing with native Americans as well as Asians and some ostracized whites who also left "civilization" for some sort of freedom, so it was not unusual in later years for gauchos to be mestizos.

When Argentina became independent, the government aggressively recruited immigrants, mostly from Europe, and the new immigrants became the majority. Argentina was the first country to outlaw slavery, back in 1813, although the law wasn't fully enforced until 1953 when it became part of the new constitution written that year. Historians say that black Argentines died disproportionally in the early wars that Argentina fought, particularly the war against Paraguay in the mid 19th century. Also being mostly poor, they died disproportionally from disease. Other than that, the black blood mostly became diluted through intermarriage with non-blacks.

Certainly we see African influence in Argentine music like Tango and Milonga, as well as in some of our unique Argentine slang words that have African origin, like "quilombo" for example, but there is now little trace remaining of black Argentines, although some people will show some traits of their black ancestry. The few blacks that now live in Argentina are more recent immigrants.

argentine soccer fan · Jul 15, 2019

charlie15 said: ↑

Noted and apologies for using that word. That was uncalled for.
Hope you read the article as well. It is very informative and give some specific examples of how white privilege manifests itself in every day's life, particularly for POC.
I could myself give you countless examples, from being followed in a department store, to being asked for my legal status by a traffic police officer who stopped me because I was driving a BMW. By the way, his first question was "Whose car is this"? He also told me he stopped me just for a routine check not for any traffic violations. That "driving while black" story is part and parcel of our plight in this world and I could go on and on.
There is a reason that black and brown families have what we call "the talk" with our kids/nephews/ nieces. Ever heard of this? Google it!
I can bet that never happens with white kids. As a matter of fact, it always amaze me how belligerent white people can be with police officers, something that most of us know well that could cost us our life.

PS. By the way, I love Argentina. Been there often! Was in BA's and Mendoza during Easter!
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Yes, that was a very good article, thanks. And I'm glad you enjoy Argentina. In spite of our tumultuous history and some of the horrible things we've endured, it is a beautiful country with a rich culture.

ceezmad · Jul 15, 2019

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Let me answer based on what I've learned and think, and a historian is welcome to dispute what I say, since I'm not a historian myself.

There were black slaves in Argentina during colonial times and in the early days of the new nation. From what I understand, there were not too many, because we never had an economy based on slavery - like Brazil, the West Indies or the US South for example - and because being as we were at the very bottom of South America, there were few colonizers overall compared to say Mexico or Peru. Few whites, as well as few blacks. Slaves were primarily bought as household servants for the rich, or part of the sex trade.
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Hard to tell, but the numbers I have seen are about 60,000 legally traded and probably another 40,000 after it became illegal (but obviously not enforced).

So total about 100K.

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

When Argentina became independent, the government aggressively recruited immigrants, mostly from Europe, and the new immigrants became the majority. Argentina was the first country to outlaw slavery, back in 1813, although the law wasn't fully enforced until 1953 when it became part of the new constitution written that year. Historians say that black Argentines died disproportionally in the early wars that Argentina fought, particularly the war against Paraguay in the mid 19th century. Also being mostly poor, they died disproportionally from disease. Other than that, the black blood mostly became diluted through intermarriage with non-blacks.
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And immigration to to Brazil, blacks were probably not treated well in Argentina so many that survived the wars and the plagues immigrated.

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Certainly we see African influence in Argentine music like Tango and Milonga, as well as in some of our unique Argentine slang words that have African origin, like "quilombo" for example, but there is now little trace remaining of black Argentines, although some people will show some traits of their black ancestry. The few blacks that now live in Argentina are more recent immigrants.
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Isn't quilombo a name for towns formed by run away slaves (from Brazil/Portuguese)?

Some links

https://www.theroot.com/true-or-false-there-are-no-black-people-in-argentina-1790876367

https://www.ibtimes.com/blackout-how-argentina-eliminated-africans-its-history-conscience-1289381

argentine soccer fan · Jul 15, 2019

ceezmad said: ↑

Isn't quilombo a name for towns formed by run away slaves (from Brazil/Portuguese)?
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In Argentine Spanish, quilombo can mean a prostitution house, or also - more commonly, it's used to describe a mess, scandal, conflict, uproar or disorder. For example, "there is a general strike today and the city is a quilombo."

ceezmad · Jul 15, 2019

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

In Argentine Spanish, quilombo can mean a prostitution house, or also - more commonly, it's used to describe a mess, scandal, conflict, uproar or disorder. For example, "there is a general strike today and the city is a quilombo."
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Well, if we googled the traces of the word in Argentina, I would not be shocked if it came from the Portuguese word (kind of like the N-word), I am sure that in the minds of white folk, towns run by escaped black folk would be " a mess, scandal, conflict, uproar or disorder" so they took that term and applied it as they saw fit.

soccernutter · Jul 15, 2019

JohnR said: ↑

The underlying issues associated with "white privilege" are accurate and need to be discussed, but the term itself is unhelpful. It does not succeed at convincing those who are not already convinced. They hear the term and shut down.
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I disagree. Those who don't want to discuss it don't think White Privilege exists because they are comparing themselves, historically, to all people, which means other Whites. That negates the "privilege" aspect of the term because, from the POC view, Whites have the privilege to walk or drive or get coffee unmolested because of their race. Whites have the privilege to buy property anywhere they want. Whites have never been accused, as a race, of being lazy or dumb or having a smaller brain (or bigger dick/more promiscuous). Those are the same people who think that Blacks only want a cash payment/hand out when it comes to reparations. The term itself is accurate. The people who are not convinced don't want to participate in the conversation.

JohnR · Jul 15, 2019

soccernutter said: ↑

I disagree. Those who don't want to discuss it don't think White Privilege exists because they are comparing themselves, historically, to all people, which means other Whites. That negates the "privilege" aspect of the term because, from the POC view, Whites have the privilege to walk or drive or get coffee unmolested because of their race. Whites have the privilege to buy property anywhere they want. Whites have never been accused, as a race, of being lazy or dumb or having a smaller brain (or bigger dick/more promiscuous). Those are the same people who think that Blacks only want a cash payment/hand out when it comes to reparations. The term itself is accurate. The people who are not convinced don't want to participate in the conversation.
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You're preaching to the converted. The non-converted hear the term "white privilege," snort in disdain because everybody knows that white people are the only people who don't benefit from affirmative action, and then the conversation is over. He walks away laughing at how naive the left is about how things really work in this country.

soccernutter · Jul 15, 2019

sitruc said: ↑

Decent thread. I was going to make a similar point on the US men's board until I realized that I was on that board and said ******** it and left.

Some context around this quote: of *course* “racist” means something, and its v important to name things as such; it describes the material realities/relations of the world we inhabit.

The problem i was describing here is how white ppl frame the threshold for it. https://t.co/PILy8LoG0h
— The LeBron James of Pig Feet. (@GeeDee215) July 15, 2019

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That is pretty good. But it also gets into a more existential question: Can the US exist if all races are really treated equal? So many of our systems and idea have racism built in that it might be impossible to have the US be a country where all races are treated equal. (And I know "treated" is a loaded term with many, many aspects.)

soccernutter · Jul 15, 2019

JohnR said: ↑

You're preaching to the converted. The non-converted hear the term "white privilege," snort in disdain because everybody knows that white people are the only people who don't benefit from affirmative action, and then the conversation is over. He walks away laughing at how naive the left is about how things really work in this country.
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Don't forget, he walks away to head to his gated community patrolled by private security.

ceezmad · Jul 15, 2019

soccernutter said: ↑

That is pretty good. But it also gets into a more existential question: Can the US exist if all races are really treated equal? So many of our systems and idea have racism built in that it might be impossible to have the US be a country where all races are treated equal. (And I know "treated" is a loaded term with many, many aspects.)
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treated equal would mean no privileges for anyone, and all humans like privileges, not all based on race.

JohnR · Jul 15, 2019

soccernutter said: ↑

Don't forget, he walks away to head to his gated community patrolled by private security.
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You think that guys who live in trailer parks are better listeners?

Chicago76 · Jul 15, 2019

soccernutter said: ↑

I disagree. Those who don't want to discuss it don't think White Privilege exists because they are comparing themselves, historically, to all people, which means other Whites. That negates the "privilege" aspect of the term because, from the POC view, Whites have the privilege to walk or drive or get coffee unmolested because of their race. Whites have the privilege to buy property anywhere they want. Whites have never been accused, as a race, of being lazy or dumb or having a smaller brain (or bigger dick/more promiscuous). Those are the same people who think that Blacks only want a cash payment/hand out when it comes to reparations. The term itself is accurate. The people who are not convinced don't want to participate in the conversation.
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I think terms such as these often need to be used wrt to a group’s objectives considering their audience. If a group’s goal is to most precisely define the the issue, using terms like “white privilege”, “intersectional”, the BLM manifesto (or whatever they call it) is appropriate. But if your goal is to convey your message outside that group (to the unconverted who aren’t opposed to your broader agenda), the linguistic precision comes at a cost.

That’s the problem.

I’m not equating the justness of any of those causes to any of the things I’m about to bring up on the other side of the political spectrum, but compare the favored phrases of the social justice side to the following phrases:

-men’s rights
-right to work
-family focused

One side of the political spectrum is a helluva lot better than the other at branding/coding their message for mass consumption.

taosjohn · Jul 15, 2019

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Some slaves escaped to the wild pampas, mixing with native Americans as well as Asians and some ostracized whites who also left "civilization" for some sort of freedom, so it was not unusual in later years for gauchos to be mestizos.
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Some hundreds or thousands of whom were recruited for the infant cattle industry in 1830s and 40's Florida, where of course they were considered white; moving on, many of them to Texas and Hawaii with the spread of the industry to those places,. Some of those who went to Hawaii then came back to the far west, and brought back with them the steel string/slack key guitars they picked up there-- which is how the pedal steel came to be the mainstay of "country and western" music...