[R] Bocanegra : Rennes v Auxerre - 3/8

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad Gameday' started by Nanbawan, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax

    I agree with very little of what you said about the Mexico game, especially the pure hyperbole against Pearce. It's all just seems like more personal cherry picking, even as mistakes and poor games by the players you are behind get glossed over, excused and defended.

    Simply, none of this is balanced commentary. It's so clearly slanted to one-side that I have a hard time mustering the effort to respond point-by-point.

    Or should I take seriously things like "There really was no plus side for Pearce" directly before you wantonly shower big reach false praise on Kljestan for the same game? In other words, Pearce did absolutely nothing and Kljestan was the key to Bradley's MOTM performance? Is that about the size of it? C'mon, dude. You know better.

    I criticize Pearce plenty... when applicable.
     
  2. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Not sure what you're referring to, but I've seen some results and he's not faster than Donovan. But at least 2nd or 3rd fastest player in the US Pool. Just not tremendously quick or capable of changing direction in a hurry.
     
  3. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    All depending on the match-ups. There will be international sides which have no business seeing Boca against them at LB.
     
  4. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax

    Precisely. The LB Boca plays at Rennes is not the same LB Pearce is playing with the USMNT.

    And they think Pearce has trouble with small shifty dudes? Yeesh.
     
  5. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    And frankly, I think several people here are totally pulling on blinders if they think just anyone can slot in and play like Boca generally does at LEFT center back. We have no even swaps there*, sorry.


    * - assuming Cory Gibbs never returns to his best, which I certainly hope he can.
     
  6. Rainer24

    Rainer24 Member

    Jan 6, 2008
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I did not say Kljestan was the key to Bradley's performance, just that I did not see him as clearly being the weak link in any way. You type that junk, and you get all worked up about my not rating Pearce as very as hyperbole. Good job. I didn't think Kljestan had an amazing game against Mexico, nor did I ever write that. I just didn't see him as being nearly as bad as you did. Pearce is rotting on the bench for a team that is about to be relegated to the 3rd Bundesliga. What I have seen is Pearce beaten repeatedly by wingers who do not qualify as world class talents, and at the same time never once providing an assist or scoring a goal himself. If he is not providing offense from the position, why is he out there? Yeah, I was harsh, but he has over twenty caps now and I have never seen him play a match where I was left thinking, "man, we just can't do any better than that." Maybe we have nothing better going on, but there has been nothing praisworthy about Pearce's last several games in a U.S. shirt. If he's the guy, he needs to play better.
     
  7. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    I don't think Boca and Gooch is a great CB pairing. I think Boca has been played as a LB for various clubs by various managers not named Bob Bradley because as he's showing at Rennes, he's a pretty good left back. And as he showed at Fulham and against stronger opponents with the US, he's more than capable of the occasional brain fart at CB. Of course there will be those who look back over the past few games as we pound on shitty CONCACAF competition and claim Bocanegra is now irreplaceable at CB. This reminds me of people who used to get their panties in a bunch in 2001 when I said Jeff Agoos had no business being the LCB on the national team and would be a liability against better opposition. The responses? "Results." Or even better, "Agoos brings intangibles that nobody...blah blah blah." Thank God for Gregg Berhalter.

    Pearce, OTOH, certainly isn't meriting a case for himself. I love it when people say Boca shouldn't play left back because he cannot "add to the attack." As opposed to what? Pearce? What, exactly, has he added to the attack? Where are the examples of his excellent overlapping runs and crosses into the box? Where are his results? Where is the evidence he brings anything more than Boca can to the attack? Because he's straight line fast and doesn't trip on his own feet with the ball?

    Here we have a guy who is PLAYING left back at a higher level than his comparison, who is SITTING and not playing. And the BS brain trust says Boca cannot be a left back because:

    "International Soccer > League 1."

    Here's another formula:

    "International Soccer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bundesliga 2 Bench."

    I can beat the shit out of this windmill all day long, and I realize it doesn't matter. Bradley's loved Bocanegra at LCB since the Fire days. But to discount Boca's success at LB and the argument that maybe he should be playing there for the US, too? I don't get it. And using a mythical version of an attacking Pearce makes even less sense.
     
  8. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    If anyone's tilting at windmills, it's Mr. Alphabet Soup.
     
  9. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Which means Kirovski struggled to find playing time at any half-decent club he ever played for (5 Premiership starts and mostly garbage time at Dortmund), while Spector has been a steady rotational figure in the Premiership the past 3 seasons at Charlton and West Ham (nearly 50 Premiership starts in all, despite several injuries).

    Just based on the numbers, the difference between Kirovski and Spector is the difference between a reserves and platoon player. Unless you think people's expectations for Spector are significantly higher than they were for Kirovski, it's just not a fair comparison.
     
  10. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax

    Nothing? Zero things? You aren't exaggerating at all? He has literally done no things to help the team?

    There's not even a debate to the premise: Heath Pearce has done zero things of worth in his last several USMNT games. None. It's ridiculous. And yet, you pile point after point of evidence, all going one direction, some valid and then some painted in a negative light like he owes you money, all to back this silly overall assertion.

    I'm sorry you feel that junk has been typed at you. But good grief... what do you want for this sort of "objective" analysis? Your entire premise is preposterous, and one can only imagine, personal.

    Meanwhile, I'm not in any way painting him as Superman on steroids. I say he's been underwhelming in attack production. I say he's been turned here and there. I never proposed he was infallible. I said some of you are cherry picking gripes to find anyone but him. FCOL we've got nutballs on here swearing Beasley should start at left back. :eek:

    Sometimes, some folks just don't call 'em fair on certain players for certain reasons. They amplify the bad stuff and completely ignore the good stuff. He's one of those players, and this my friend, is one of those situations.
     
  11. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Bocanegra has pretty much evenly split his time in Europe playing as a left back and as a centerback. His first 1.5 seasons at Fulham were played as a left back, his next 2.5 seasons were played as a centerback (with a brief spell as a defensive midfielder), and now he's playing as a left back again.

    Here's a question. Since I didn't start following Fulham until McBride became a regular starter there, I'm curious how those who have followed Bocanegra's entire career would compare his performances at left-back to those at center back for his clubs. This is directed specifically at those who regularly followed him and didn't just tune in for a couple matches a season.
     
  12. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax

    He was okay as a left back for Fulham, but his best times there came over the last 2 seasons.

    Personally, I find moving him out of the middle a waste of his best attributes. To me, he's so much more in the middle. There is no other USMNT left-footed center back that commands the air like he does, not even close. If people want to tinker, fine, but I am greatly against moving 'Los wide.
     
  13. StEtienne

    StEtienne Member

    Mar 10, 2000
    USA
    Getting into the attack as an outside back generally means overlapping and putting in quality crosses. The fact that he pushed up for a header sounds more like something a center back might do a couple times during the course of a game. Seems like Rennes plays him more like an extra center back...which is probably why he is more comfortable there than when he played LB for Fulham.
     
  14. Rainer24

    Rainer24 Member

    Jan 6, 2008
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Fine, I haven't given Pearce sufficient credit, but I think he has been the weak link in the back four. That's it. If you want to call that personal, fine. Maybe he has ability that I haven't seen, but his performances haven't been that great and we need someone doing to a better job at that position. It might even be Pearce himself, but I think he has been beaten by his man repeatedly in recent games for the U.S. and that is a problem. Where is the Pearce that played against Argentina? He looked pretty good in that game, but that was quite a while ago now, and I don't think we've seen anything approaching that level of play from him since. Why not? No club action? Why not?
     
  15. El_Gringo

    El_Gringo New Member

    Feb 9, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If all you do is read BS and don't watch Boca play for Rennes, you would think that. The common myth here is they play a 3 man defensive line and therefore Boca doesn't get into the attack much.

    I am no soccer expert and there might be some subtlety I'm missing, but he plays a very similar role as the US team's fullback.
     
  16. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Here is Soccernet's average position chart for Rennes in their last five league matches (click on "Average Position" and "Stade Rennes" from the drop down boxes):

    http://soccernet-assets.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=252291&page=features&cc=5901&league=FRA.1

    http://soccernet-assets.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=252314&page=features&cc=5901&league=FRA.1

    http://soccernet-assets.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=252192&page=features&cc=5901&league=FRA.1

    http://soccernet-assets.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=252324&page=features&cc=5901&league=FRA.1

    http://soccernet-assets.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=252334&page=features&cc=5901&league=FRA.1

    I almost want to start a new thread to dispel the myth that Rennes play a three man backline, but for now I think it's clear from those links that Bocanegra plays as a left back in a four man backline. In two of those matches, though, the right back was clearly pushing up higher than Bocanegra.

    And, I agree with El_Gringo. Unfortunately, Soccernet doesn't do these average position charts for the national team, but I suspect Bocanegra's average position in these Ligue 1 matches would look very similar to the average position of the leftbacks in USMNT matches.
     
  17. El_Gringo

    El_Gringo New Member

    Feb 9, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Holy cow, that is really cool. Thanks for the info.
     
  18. El_Gringo

    El_Gringo New Member

    Feb 9, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are a lot of good posters who misunderstand his role at Rennes. I think it would make for an interesting thread.
     
  19. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax

    Same as Freddy, he plays for idiots. The guy could have left last summer... the coach insisted he needed him. Pearce could have left in January... the next idiot coach insisted he needed him. Now, he's been axed too. That club is in shambles right now. They cut Rahn loose for nothing and he immediately got a starting job with the league leaders. It's all weirdness and backwards-ness and self defeating shows of power over there.

    They sure as hell aren't sinking into oblivion because of Pearce's play, that's for certain! Frankly, I'm stunned at how they have been doing things over there this season. That used to be a proud club.

    This summer, he will go somewhere on a free and return to tiptop form instead of sitting on the bench for no good reason. Still, if I'm worried about one USMNT defender lately, it's Cherundolo and not Pearce.
     
  20. shooter6065

    shooter6065 Member

    Nov 16, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I have watched Bocanegra his entire career, from his first games with the Great Chicago Fire until now.

    In Chicago, he was part of a very effective 3 man back-line and was Defender of the Year (Twice I think). He was a tough, physical defender and was sometimes dominant.

    When he started at Fulham he was a left back. He is not fleet-of-foot and that was exposed a bit. His crosses were not great either but he was serviceable in a pinch.

    Then he moved to centerback where his abilities in the air could really shine. I would watch him and it seemed that he was never far from disaster but would always somehow manage. Playing centerback in the EPL is a tough business.

    I have seen several Rennes games with him at LB and he is very effective. Again, his lack of speed shows at times but, like most defenders, he can make it up with smart positioning. Plus, it is nice for a coach to be able to field a LB who is great in the air......a luxury really. Even though he is not quick, opposing teams only rarely get behind him.

    Because of the constant USMNT left back issues, I really think that is where he should be playing and will be playing very soon, unless somebody emerges very quickly. Stick Spector/Cailiff/Marshall/Conrad in the middle with Gooch.
     
  21. Rainer24

    Rainer24 Member

    Jan 6, 2008
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Yeah, I have liked Cherundolo for a long time, but he is not having a good year, either in terms of form or health. I hope Pearce gets his situation straightened out. I don't think he's a guy who can't play well for us, I just don't think he has really brought anything near his top level of play lately.
     
  22. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    Wouldn't mind seeing Cherundolo take the summer off. He's showing the effects of a lot of years of battling the big boys plus maintaining the hectic schedule of a well-travelled international. The years may be catching up to him, already an under-sized player.
     
  23. Rainer24

    Rainer24 Member

    Jan 6, 2008
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Yeah, but you could you imagine a guy agreeing to sit out a whole summer the year before a world cup? That's pretty much inviting another guy to come in and take your spot. Maybe it would be good for him, but I don't think there's any way he would really consider it. It's one thing if you're Kaka coming off a year when you were chosen best player in the world and still have plenty of years left in the tank, it's another thing entirely when you're a good pro on the downside of his career trying to hold off younger guys competiting for your spot.
     
  24. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he should skip Confed Cup.
     
  25. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    He's got nothing to prove to the Nats brain thrust. They know what he's capable of. His career and accomplishments speak for themselves. Recharging his batteries is the best way to insure that come 2010 he's putting the best product out on the field. If that's the case, he would still be #1 choice.
     

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