Question regarding reserve teams.

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by Wallydrag, Jul 9, 2004.

  1. Wallydrag

    Wallydrag BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 24, 2002
    Oklahoma City
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Country:
    United States
    So let's say that every team in MLS has a reserve team. How would this system work?

    I'm not all familiar with how they work over seas and in other league. Does the reserve team travel with the 1st squad on roads trips to play the other team's reserves?
     
  2. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    It varies from country to country. In England, reserve teams play in a separate league, and play only against other teams' reserves. In Germany and Spain, reserve teams simply play in lower divisions - supposedly they cannot be promoted above Regionalliga in Germany.
     
  3. HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid Member

    Apr 9, 1999
    Not too long ago, Real Madrid's reserves (Castilla/Real Madrid B) earned promotion to Primera Liga but could not go, of course, due to Madrid being in it already.

    The same has happened to a few clubs.
     
  4. PFSIKH

    PFSIKH Member

    Nov 1, 1999
    ClarkVegas
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Country:
    United States
    In Germany they also have 2 levels (at the very least) of junior teams like the lower regional leagues.
     
  5. Hattrix

    Hattrix Member

    Sep 1, 2002
    Chicago
    That's where the Chicago Fire Reserves and Boulder Rapids Reserves currently play in the PDL, but these are not classic reserve teams in that their players do not get called up to the first team to play in MLS.

    There are four professional divisions under US Soccer, with some Canadian teams in a couple of them: Major League Soccer, A-League, Professional Soccer League, and Premier Development League. Teams in the PDL are usually made up of college players in their off season. The A-League and PSL often have older players.

    A true reserve team would be made up of players who are eligible to be added to a first team roster and compete in MLS. As such, it would probably have to play in the PSL, since the PDL is more of a glorified youth league.

    My question to add to this discussion is how Reserve teams in countries other than England fit into the Cup tournament. The Chicago Fire Reserves, for example, just played the Rochester Raging Rhinos in the US Open Cup. A true reserve team should not be in the domestic cup competition, since it is essentially the bench for the first team.

    Some MLS sides currently have relationships with A league and PSL teams where they loan out rookies or borrow more experienced players. But these are merely contracted relationships, not full reserve sides. In cup competition, players must represent the side they are signed with, rather than a side they're loaned to.
     
  6. Hattrix

    Hattrix Member

    Sep 1, 2002
    Chicago
    Apparently I was wrong. There are three pro divisions. The PDL is an amature league.

    Also, the Richmond Kickers, an A-League team, have a team in the PDL called the Richmond Kickers Future. They also have a full youth program.

    This past year, the Chicago Fire have launched the Chicago Fire Juniors, which has youth teams all the way up to U-23. I'm not sure if any other MLS teams have Juniors teams as well.
     
  7. Cannon

    Cannon Member

    Arsenal
    United States
    Sep 2, 2001
    Washington, DC metro
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    United States
    How does the Dutch Cup work then? I admit I know almost nothing about the Dutch League but I noticed in CM4 that the reserves compete in the Dutch Cup even though their senior squads also play for the cup.
     
  8. Metros Striker10

    Metros Striker10 New Member

    Jul 7, 2001
    Planet Earth
    The MetroStars used to have the MetroStars Red and MetroStars Black. I said used to because I'm not sure if they are around. Think both play(ed) in NJ leagues.
     
  9. MasterShake29

    MasterShake29 Member+

    Oct 28, 2001
    Jersey City, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Country:
    United States
    In England reserve teams do not enter the FA Cup. In Holland and maybe Spain they do. So it varies from country to country.

    If I were setting it up, I wouldn't have reserve teams, but rather "B" games, held immediately after the MLS game. That way bench players who didn't get much or any time could get a full game, and diehard fans could stay and watch the 2nd game for free. I think the NBA should do something similar, but that's another topic.
     
  10. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Didn't we have a discussion on this a while back? About the logistics and the costs that would go along with it?

    I'd think that if you had true "reserve" teams, they should play the other reserve teams in some sort of a league format. Maybe you'd have it so the reserve teams would only play another team's reserves twice a season - once home and once away. 18 games right now (more as MLS grows). So on one of the Metros' two trips to DC, their respective reserve squads would play, either before or after.

    You'd still have to transport and house twice as many players on a little more than half your roadtrips, plus pay the salaries of the reserve players and presumably a coach (who could be one of the first team's assistants, I guess) and athletic trainer and all that.

    I would think they'd get better competition and it would be easier to work that way than having them play in the low-rent PSL against $50-a-game hacks.
     
  11. SoftTackle

    SoftTackle Member

    Jan 16, 2004
    Missoula, MT
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Just how much more expensive would it be:

    If airfare, plus hotel, plus food allowance was $600 per player that would come out to $9,600 per roadtrip for a 16 man reserve squad, which comes out to $144,000 per year for 15 road trips. Even if you throw in an extra $50k just to be conservative, a single player of say McBride's calibre coming out of a reserve team would result in the expenses being paid for a decade or more.
     
  12. denver_mugwamp

    denver_mugwamp New Member

    Feb 9, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    The costs and distances are just too big to have EPL-type reserve teams. I can't see any way that it would ever happen in the US. However, it would seem there is a better possibility that each MLS team could increase its roster by another 10 or so P-40 players and then loan them all to a lower division team like in baseball. This would be a good deal for the minor league team, since they would save on salaries. The players would get good experience in front of fans instead of playing meaningless games before small crowds. But it all comes down to money and MLS isn't exactly flush with cash quite yet.
     
  13. PZ

    PZ Member

    Apr 11, 1999
    Michiana
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    Country:
    United States
    If costs (squad size, travel etc) weren't an issue, it would be great to have a JV (reserve) match right before the big boys play (or right after with players not used in the first team match)

    But costs will keep that from happening.
     
  14. Peter Wilt

    Peter Wilt Member

    Jun 11, 1999
    Whitefish Bay, WI
    i think this is pretty close to what we hope to create as soon as next season...add four developmental spots or two minimum salary and two developmental spots to current rosters. probably just play reserve teams within conference 4x each (20 games) to minimize travel costs (mainly on Mondays to include a few players who played small minutes on Sat.). Add scrimmages vs. 1st side, local USL and amateur clubs to get up to 30+ games. Integrate training sessions and philosophies with first side. Additional labor and travel expense would cost $2m to $3m League wide.

    peter
     
  15. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Country:
    England
    Having first teams and reserves competing doesn't always work out.
    (from www.rsssf.com)


    In the eastern group (Skupina B) of the second division (II. Liga) of Czechoslovakia in 1957/58 (which consisted of a triple round robin due to the transition to a spring-fall system), the reserves of Spartak Kosice did rather better than their first team:


    1.Dynamo Zilina 33 20 5 8 79-35 45 Promoted
    2.Spartak Kosice B 33 19 6 8 64-29 44 Promoted
    ------------------------------------------------------
    3.Dukla Trencin 33 15 8 10 58-37 38
    4.Jiskra Gottwaldov 33 15 8 10 49-42 38
    5.Slovan Prostejov 33 16 5 12 76-61 37
    6.Slovan Nitra 33 14 8 11 58-45 36
    7.TJ VZKG 33 15 4 14 74-55 34
    8.TJ Topol'cany 33 12 9 12 54-49 33
    9.Iskra Odeva Trencin 33 13 6 14 58-53 32
    10.Slovan Bratislava B 33 8 13 12 45-62 29
    ------------------------------------------------------
    11.Lokomotíva Spisská Nova Ves 33 7 10 16 36-78 24 Relegated
    12.Spartak Kosice A 33 0 6 27 19-124 6 Relegated
     
  16. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    American Samoa
    I obviously think this is a great idea, but I've got to wonder if adding four players is enough. The Revolution played their last game with 4 subs available, and one a couple weeks ago with only three, because of injuries. San Jose, at one point last year, had no one but the goalie (I believe). What happens if a team has a reserve game scheduled but only 7 or 8 players available to play? They can't bring the practice college players (e.g. Burn's Jamie Watson, Hunter Freeman), can they? Do they get the opposing team to loan them a couple for the game? Or does it just get cancelled?
     
  17. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    OMG, Peter Wilt replied to a post of mine! And I was close to something that's already in the works! And he didn't hip me to it first! :)
     
  18. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
  19. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Country:
    United States
    I was reading the Wash Post article about MLS2 here and I was thinking that its not as simple as a MLS2 (reserve league) replacing A-League or PSL. These USL leagues operate in different cities than MLS. For instance, if the PSL/A-League was replaced by a MLS2 then Florida would have no chance for any form of pro soccer (besides getting a new MLS team hahaha).
    Any thoughts?
     
  20. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    I don't think he's talking about MLS2. The term "league" is kind of loose here, if I understand the concept that's been talked about.

    MLS teams would have expanded rosters, and they'd have those extra guys and guys who didn't play much (or at all) in the league match on, say, the Saturday, play against the extra guys from another team on that Monday. They could play at a training ground, or a high school, or the home team's stadium, if they have an SSS and it's practical.

    I don't know that they'd keep standings or not.

    But it has nothing to do with "replacing" the A-League or PSL. Those leagues, which have actual infrastructure and standings and whatnot, would do whatever they do. The MLS reserve "league," such as it is, would be more informal than that.
     
  21. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Country:
    United States
    Well that would be far less threatening to USL thats for sure. And that would be a far cheaper way of doing it.
     
  22. chapulincolorado

    Jul 14, 1999
    McAllen, Texas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Country:
    Mexico
    Probably they may do what they do in Mexico also. From what I have seen, there is two systems depending on the club. Some clubs field teams in the lower divisions, but never get promoted (such as Hidalgo Cruz Azul). Other clubs have their reserve team or fuerzas basicas travel with them and play against other reserve teams. For example, in the US scenario, it would be a double header: FC Dallas vs. LA Galaxy and FC Dallas Reserves vs. LA Galaxy Reserves in the same day.

    El Chapulin Colorado
     
  23. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Although Peter Wilt said games would likely be on Mondays. I'll bet they'd do some doubleheaders, but I'd imagine a lot of those reserve guys would also have to coach to make ends meet, and might be tied up on weekends.
     
  24. CPRoyale

    CPRoyale New Member

    Apr 14, 2001
    Adams Morgan
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    United States
    That is the most random search/example I have ever seen in any sport discussion EVER. congrats!
     

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