Question #2 Who are the central midfielders?

a. depends on the opponent and formation. He needs to not be tethered inside and when he starts to dribble over long distances he tends to get wide-eyed into eventual traffic. 352 and 442 diamond are good formations for him to not get tethered. If we're going to boss the opponent or get bossed, I think he should be placed at a-wing or wing, respectively.

b. similar consideration as Chris. I think he can be an 8 against a weak opponent where we don't need as much d, 10 against a really strong one where we more need him to link up with the fw's, and in between he's outside as a standard winger or tucked in one (not attacking as he's not aggressive or creative enough).

c. No, he's an ordinary player now that he's lost a step, he plays selfishly on the field, and is bad for chemistry considering he was throwing teammates under the bus to save himself for deserved criticism from recent performances. His time should be up.

d. No, I don't know how anyone could have seen that from his GC performances. His tackling, positioning, and passing efficiency left a lot to be desired. If you think he can partner with Bradley, it's not because of what happened in the GC. I've never been impressed with him at c(d)m. He's never been more than an average starter in MLS. He could improve because of youth, but he's not a starter caliber cm for the U.S. right now.

e. No, Philly has been better with him off the field the last 2 seasons and he was partly to blame for a lot of bad performances for the U.S. in recent years. He's a bottom of the squad player at best who may do a job for you in a pinch.

f. Geoff Cameron is the best established cdm we have. It's long overdue we employ him there. The stats and eye test in the PL support it. And we have the cb depth/quality between Brooks, Besler, and soon I think Miazga + EPB w/ trials w/ the senior nt. In the interim if Brooks were out I'd go with Besler-Gonzalez as the cb pairing.

Roldan has arguably been the best American in MLS at any position, and arguably the best player on the reigning champion Sounders, since he took a starting role next year. If Bruce doesn't have him sufficient chances, not 1, but more like 7, to see if his performances translate, he's done the team a disservice.

Last time we saw Danny Williams he struggled by turning it over a lot. But he's had limited chances in c(d)m for the senior nt, and not much recently. Initially he was playing as a rb. If he's a deserved starter in the EPL this season he needs to be given trials to.

Those are the players I'd focus on the next year in integrating, and then you could always come back to Bradley/Cameron/Nagbe. Don't keep throwing Acosta out there because of sunk-cost/confirmation bias.

 

2. a. Depends on the opponent and the formation to be used.
2. b. Ditto.
2. c. Only if he adapted his game into that of a Beckerman-style player and Arena were interested in that type of player.
2 d. No. He clearly struggled against the athletic physicality of even 'low level' players.
2. e. Possibly. He is excelling in the role for Philly. He also did well in limited minutes in the role in the GC.
2. f. Danny Williams. Roldan. McKennie. Agudelo. Kljestan. Thompson

 

Good thread.

I think the key here is getting the best players on the field in the best possible combinations for each opponent.

Pulisic needs to be able to do two things in every game: carry the ball in transition and work the area around the 18 yard line with runs and passes.

Nagbe is now a mainstay, imo. You need him to maintain possession and keep pressing him to square up and run at players more.

Nagbe and Pulisic need to be in triangles together. The third member of their triangles should rotate. They'll need to connect with overlapping wings/defenders and with Jozy/Dempsey.

I think that your spine looks something like this:
--------------Jozy------------
-------------------Pulisic-----
-------Nagbe------------------
--------------Bradley----------
------Brooks----Cameron--
-------------Howard-----------

The other players around them vary depending on the game on the field and what the scenario is at that time.

A word on JJ...a coach should never give up on a player, especially one who has performed well in the two major tournaments he has played in. Not only that, but Jones' performance in the last World Cup is arguably the greatest USMNT tournament performance of all time at any position. A coach would be a fool to close the door on that unless the player had proven to be incapable.

Bradleys midfield partner...Is go with a player who can cover ground and has attributes Bradley does not. That's Jones, Williams, or Acosta. You take two of them. Roldan is not in the conversation. He's not at international level yet.

 

i would play wonderboy on a wing regardless of formation, and in the middle id go with different combos of bradley, williams and feilhaber- so clearly what i think and the reality of our national team arent super compatible.

i will add that i still feel less delusional than anyone holding out hope for jones or cameron at cm in russia.

 

Yep, you know that off one game, his debut (where players can be prone to nerves), where he was told to play simply, played fine in that role, played in front of the trash cb pairing of Hedges-Omar, when Acosta underwhelmed that same game, and when he's better than his USNT cm comp in MLS per the objective ratings and to most who watch them regularly.

OTOH, you suggest Jones at 36-37, and with the justification about not giving up on a player so easily, when that's precisely what you did with Roldan. Unlike Roldan, Jones got a real shot recently, played badly in them, projects to get worse, not better, and is bad for team chemistry not good.

 

My opinion of Roldan is just my opinion. Its of little consequence. I don't think he's ready yet, but I never said that one day he may not be. Id certainly give Jones a role before Roldan, even if its Jones as a guy you bring in to mix it up late in a game. Thats more contribution than you get from Roldan, imo.

 

i'll take a different angle:

to me ...it's a numbers game.

what i mean is this: the wide mids that are currently being given opportunities arent very likely to score goals....arriola, bedoya pontius in particular come to mind....but even nagbe zardes, fj etc arent likely to score a goal that isnt due to random luck/deflection/scramble in the box etc.....

so...how does that connect to who the CM should be?

well....i think the way you will see bruce employ the usmnt against most decent teams is only allwoing 4 players to attack: the wide mids and the 2 forwards or 1 forward/attacking mid...only if the us' opponent is bunkering in their own box will you see the CM and maybe outside back gets into the final third....which, in world cup play, is not going to happen a ton (and would usually mean time is running out and the usmnt is losing).....

what this all boils down to is 4 attackers are going to have to try to work together vs the opponents defense.

if 2 of those 4 - the wide mids - arent likely to score....it makes it very easy for defenses to bottle up the usmnt attack. further, if the center mids arent going to come forward and get involved in attacks/score goals....it creates a situation where the usmnt will struggle to create scoring chances and goals. it is especailly hard for forwards who rely on service and cannot really create their own goals...like a wondo or dwyer....to thrive in such a set up.

so, to me, players who can score need to be looked at wide mid. in the interests of getting as many possible players on the field who can actually score goals somewhat consistently....i would play pulisic at wide mid for now. that way, at least 3 players are significant threats to score - the 2 forwards and pulisic at wide mid.

in this same vein of thinking, i would move nageb away from outside mid and move him centrally....for one, this opens up a spot for a more likely scorer at wing....and increases the chance that a center mid will be more goal dangerous because even though nagbe isnt much of a goal-threat (thus far) at wing, he is still more of an offensive weapon than pretty much all of the center mids bruce and jk have opted for.

now, a limitation of the pool is at wide mid - specifically, wide mids who can score and be truly dangerous in the way they are supposed to be...so finding goal-dangerous wide mids isnt as easy as just deciding that that should be the preference.

nevertheless, there are a few players in the pool who could potentially be that type of player but havent proven it yet/were injured etc: manneh, agudelo (at wing), nguyen, mcnamara, picault, julian green, gyau....

these types of wide mids should be tried out. the wide mids who do not fit this mold shouldnt be.

all apologies to players like bedoya, zardes, arriola etc but there just arent enough attacking spots on the field (4!)to accomodate non-scoring attackers - no matter how good their defense and motors are. if you're only gonna attack with 4 players...then including 2 or more who cant score in the lineup is recipe for zero shots on goal in 90 minutes ( a la the germany match in brazil) or giving up like 20 more shots than your opponent (a la the belgium game in brazil).

alternatively (and preferably in combination with better attacking wide mids), the center mids can be more goal dangerous....and not so conservative. even if you play the "pulley" system...where 1 mid goes forward and the other stays back - thus allowing 5 attackers into the fray.....it's all moot if that center mid cant play a through ball/score fromk distance/combine for goals etc....and be a threat on offense.

this is why i'm not a fan of the dax, beckerman...and even bradley types. they arent gonna score very often...and they dont help create goals from the run of play.

to me, the center mids are the potential difference between 4 attackers on the field or 6. its why i like players like nagbe at center mid....he can shoot from distance, he can dribble and he can create opportunites for teammates from the center of the park (even if he needs to learn to be more dangerous and "selfish" with the ball)....and why i like players like benny and nguyen as center mids.

i want to see a benny-nagbe center mid pairing against a very strong offense...and see how it does. i would also like to see if nguyen can get onto the field too. then you'd hve a bunch a midfielders who can score and create who would be setting up a bunch of opportunites for the forwards.

i already know people will say that team will get shredded defensively....but guess what?? the "defensive" lineups a la USA vs ARGENTINA in COPA....got SHREDDED too.

there isnt a defensive lineup the usmnt can put out there against an argentina or germany that can stop those teams from scoring! maaaybe in 1 game...but in a knockout tourney....its a recipe for forfeit to take that approach.

what it really does is prevent the usmnt from being dangerous offensively (while also not truly stopping other teams from dominating the usmnt). it comes down to attitude and self-belief.

in summary, when you look at which teams win at world cups - and go the deepest - it's the teams with highest number of dangerous players on the field at the same time. so, that's what the usmnt needs to do: find a way to get as many goal-dangerous players on the field together.

 

ruling out arriola as a scoring option but still considering fafa picault?

i like your reasoning overall but that just stood out as a little...goofy (and i know you werent directly comparing the two).

 

did you watch arriola in the gold cup?? he was bedoya-level unlikely to score....

havent watched much mls this season but fafa has 5 goals this year in 12 starts...thats not that bad.

especailly when pontius...his teammate....has zero goals in 18 games this season....but is getting caps.

 

fun fact: arriola has as many international goals as bedoya.

arriola wasted a ton of chances in the gold cup but was a consistent threat. acosta had a very underwhelming cup as well- is it time to move on from him?

 

I think you have to look at Williams. You have to give him an honest run out. Maybe even Derrick Jones and Perry Kitchen as well.

 

hey, i said in my first post that bradley/williams/feilhaber should be our cm foundation. i just got sidetracked on attacking outside mids/wings.

 

Weston McKennie is on track to nose his way onto the field in Russia. If he gets minutes this year and then is a regular for Schalke next year, I think he walks onto the field as Bradley's partner. There is much to be done before that materializes, but the spot is there for him to take if he wants it bad enough.

 

Both Williams and McKennie deserve a shot.

 

the reality is that if mckennie does what a lot of usmnt fans are hoping for this season he will make bradley redundant....if he's killing it for schalke then he can take bradleys spot and pair with a more offensivelt capable cm a la nagbe or feilhaber....and the team can finally take the training wheels off.

 

Weston will be on the team. Feilhaber will be watching from flyover country.

 

I think Bradley is secure as the #6.

 

1. Bradley
2. Pulisic (could play wide)
3. Nagbe (could play wide)
4. Acosta (but slipping...)
5. Bedoya (could play wide)
6. McCarty
7. Williams (my pick to jump higher...)
8. Jones (sliding fast but could rally)
9. McKennie (very interesting...)
10. Feilhaber (break glass in case of emergency...)
11. Roldan
12. Kljestan

Arena will want more than the classic 8 midfielders. Only 7 true defenders are needed as the US's 8th defender has never played in a modern WC. So, I bet he takes 9 midfielders, with several having the versatility to play central or wide (Pulisic, Nagbe, Bedoya) according to the topic of this thread, or wide and forward (Arriola, Zardes) for another thread.

The problem for the older guys (Jones, Feilhaber, and Kljestan) is their lack of positional versatility, which really helps if you want to be a bench option.

 

I think that the older guys you list there all have something to add. The difficult job of an American coach is to have to project how those players' contributions translate and project in a
World Cup tournament. Some of that has to do with your draw.

If you get through the group stages, what do you need when dealing with injuries and suspensions. How does that play out with the core group? What do you need if you are down late in a knock-out game? What do you need if you are salting away a victory?

The more I ask those kinds of questions the more valuable I see someone like Jones who (if he's playing at a high enough level) can provide a predictable level of performance on both sides of the ball and has proven to be a big game player. Want to add bite to the midfield up or down late? Jones. Want to add physicality to the wing? Jones is an option. Bradley suspended or injured? Jones is probably the guy for a game.

One thing that people don't think about in these tourneys is fitness. We tend to have a FIFA video game mentality where you run out everyone repeatedly and they remain unaffected by it. By the second half of OT against Belgium, the US team was visibly gassed. So, the desire to take older guys has to be tempered by the reality that these tournaments can be brutal. Granted, the tournament is not in sweltering Brazil this time around.

 

I'm growing increasingly concerned about how our central midfield projects heading into Russia 2018. The cupboard at #6 is pretty bare, no one has truly laid claim to to the #8 role, and while I think our pool of quality #10s is as deep as it's ever been, most of the guys have yet to be given much of a chance by Bruce Arena (as well as Jurgen Klinsmann before him), and playing any of the #10s outside of Pulisic (like Sacha Kljestan, Benny Feilhaber or Lee Nguyen) definitely requires us to be more formationally and tactically rigid, by forcing us into either a 4-2-3-1 or a 3-5-2.

Here's how I've doped out our depth chart in central midfield (I've broken it out by defensive mid (#6), box-to-box central mid (#8) and attacking central mid (#10). I've listed guys twice if I think they make the depth chart in multiple areas.

Defensive Mid - #6

1. Michael Bradley - the clear leader here, and while he's a good deep-lying distributor, I'm concerned about Bradley's defensive lapses from time to time.
2. Perry Kitchen - fell out of favor at Hearts and needs to have a bounce back season at Randers or he will not make the World Cup squad as Bradley's back up.
3. Dax McCarty - I think he's Bruce Arena's #2 at this point, but I'm not sold on him as a World Cup player. Though, it took me a while to come around to Kyle Beckerman at
4. Wil Trapp - hasn't progressed like we all hoped he would after 2015. I'm still hoping he can take the next step but he's running out of time between now and Russia. I like his distribution from deep, but not sure he has the bite to be a legitimate #6 at the international level.

Do we move Geoff Cameron up to #6 and slot in a different guy at center back next to John Brooks, given our better depth at CB? That certainly gets more good players on the field, but I really like Cameron's backline organizational skills at CB - he makes Brooks better as his partner. Moving Cameron to #6 also likely moves Bradley into a #8 role, and I think we need more creativity in central midfield than a Cameron/Bradley duo would provide, unless we play a 4-2-3-1 and put a #10 on top of those guys.

Box-to-Box Central Mid - #8

1. Michael Bradley - probably also our most reliable #8 at this point, even though I've got him pegged as our starting #6.
2. Kellyn Acosta - he has been very good in MLS this year but didn't really impress me at the Gold Cup. I think we're placing a lot of hope in this kid for 2018 and I'm not sure if he's ready quite yet?
3. Emerson Hyndman - I'm pretty high on Hyndman, though I realize he still has a lot of work to do to get himself on a plane to Russia. I think he's an excellent passer, has good vision, and he's cerebral on the ball. He needs to toughen up and improve at covering ground and getting more defensive bite, and he needs to stay healthy. He impressed at Rangers on loan last season.
4. Alejandro Bedoya - Mr. Versatility. He's rarely going to win games for you, but I think he's worth keeping around the squad because he can snap in on the wing or as a #8. Still, to me, he's not "starting material" at this point.
5. Danny Williams - needs a look from Arena, unless we're all in on Acosta. I don't think Williams has the mentality of a #6 (he's too much of a runner-type), and if he impresses at Huddersfield, I suspect he could move up this list quickly and even compete for a starting spot alongside Bradley in Russia.
   
6. Darlington Nagbe - I have him as a potential starter in Russia on the wing (depending on where we put Fabian Johnson and Pulisic) or at least first off the bench for the USMNT, but he could also slide in as a #8 in a pinch if needed. He looked pretty good here against El Salvador in the Gold Cup.
7. Sebastian Lletget - also a versatile player who can play on the wing or as a #8. I like his ball skills and his work rate, and he has a nose for goal, but how will he look when he returns from injury?
8. Alfredo Morales - I wish he could be a candidate for Bradley's back up as a true #6, but I think he's more of a #8 based on where he plays with his club. Has been ignored by Arena thus far and may deserve a look, but based on what I've seen from him in the past, I rate Williams above him.
9. Christian Roldan - has looked good in MLS but didn't impress me in his run out at the Gold Cup. I'm not sure if I see him as international quality for us.
10. Jermaine Jones - I don't want to have to rely on a fading 36 year old in central midfield at the World Cup, and I don't think he makes his teammates around him better.
11. Weston McKennie? - none of us really know how much he'll progress this year and whether he can be a hail mary for us.

Attacking Central Mid - #10

1. Christian Pulisic - clearly our best attacking mid, though he may end up playing on the wing.
2. Sacha Kljestan - I think Kljestan is a great ball circulator and a good chance creator and I'm disappointed he hasn't been given more of a look under Bruce Arena. He looked good last fall with the USMNT playing as a #10.
3. Benny Feilhaber - I think Feilhaber is our most creative #10 and most capable of being a game changer outside of Pulisic. I'm confused why he hasn't been given more of a run out from Arena.
4. Lee Nguyen - Nguyen is lighting it up in MLS this year. I rate him a bit behind Kljestan and Feilhaber because, while he is more goal dangerous, I don't think he's as good a passer or chance creator as the others.
5. Kelyn Rowe - I was impressed with Rowe at the Gold Cup, but I don't think he's at the same level as the 4 guys above him here, and I don't think he's a difference maker at a World Cup.
6. Joe Corona - had a pretty ineffectual Gold Cup for the most part, and I really don't think #10 is his position. I think he's a wide player at the international level.
7. Mix Diskerud - not a legitimate option at this point unless he really lights it up in Norway between now and next May.

Who else am I missing?

 

Bradley and Jones do not need to play with each other ever again. I'll leave it at that.

 

One question we might have to look at, depending on how the next few months go: Are we willing to start two teenagers in central midfield, if they are starring in the Bundesliga?

And what if in addition, Carleton and/or Tillman are coming on strong by next spring?

 

Bruce started two 20 year olds in the opening game of the World Cup in 2002 against Portugal, and that worked out well for us, so I'd say if our teenage prospects continue to develop (or, in Pulisic's case, he just stays healthy), and they give us the best chance to win, then giddy up!