QF Match 25: USA-ECU - ROLDAN (COL)

Discussion in 'Copa América 2016 - Refereeing' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 16, 2016.

  1. Pat Chewning

    Pat Chewning Member

    Dec 22, 2011
    Beaverton Oregon
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Hasn't anyone taught Jones that when you simulate a foul you're supposed to simulate BEING fouled, not COMMITTING the foul? This reverse-simulation is stupid.

    Really, how stupid is that to fake-punch someone? If he intended to fake out the ref crew, he succeeded.

    Jones: Next time either don't do it or really get something for your foul and KO the guy....
     
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  2. soccermitchell

    soccermitchell New Member

    Mar 2, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    I don't think that Jones intended to strike the Educadorian player or had a fist but I can see how it looked that way. To me it looked like he was gesturing/pointing and then when the Ecu player grabbed at his arm it came up into the face. But engage in these confrontations and something like this is likely to happen and no question the Ecu players would have tried to make this stuff happen when they realized that Valencia was going off.

    Should have 100% been a straight red on Valencia. Valencia was out of control and should have been sent off earlier - in the first half. He repeatedly hacked US players, even after a yellow. Ref blew the management of the game earlier by allowing Valencia to continue this type of play.

    And how in the world was the Mina kick to Wood's face not a straight red - that's terrible refereeing. A slight bump to the face with the hand is straight red but a cleats first kick to the face is only a yellow.

    I can't help but feel that all these Latin American refs have a bias against the US
     
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  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    But the careless/reckless/excessive force matrix applies to fouls and therefore applies to evaluating SFP or VC during dynamic play.

    VC is seen through the prism of "excessive force or brutality" when committed at a stoppage. Trying to punch or slap someone in the face at a stoppage qualifies. Whether through your own plain reading and interpretation, through the evolved traditions of the game, or through explicit instructions by competition authorities. Professional players know that if you take a swing at someone's face and the referee sees it, you're going to get sent off.
     
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  4. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Country:
    United States
    unless he first called the initial tug from Bedoya...which I think was indeed a foul.
     
  5. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    Yes, it looked like a penalty. It's funny that you mentioned you were watching without sound, because the commentators completely ignored it.
    The production team showed the replay about a half dozen times, and you'd never know it from listening. I kept waiting for them to talk about getting lucky on the no-call, but not a word until the very end of the 7th replay or so, when someone said something like "there might have been some contact there."
     
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  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    No.

    It was stopped for the foul (I believe it was a grab/shirt pull) by a US player on Valencia. Valencia's kick out on Bedoya was retaliation or frustration. It was off-the-ball and either after the whistle or right as the whistle was going. Even more reason why it was VC.
     
  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Country:
    United States
    My immediate question when the kick out occurred (other than that's a red card) was whether the referee could have whistled the foul on Bedoya sooner or if the possibility of advantage was too significant.

    Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk
     
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  8. BTFOOM

    BTFOOM Member+

    Apr 5, 2004
    MD, USA
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    @bothways - nice to see that GREAT minds think alike. Just blame your ISP for delaying your post.

    Agree 100% with rest of your post.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    Oh, absolutely. At that to the list of minor mistakes (which in this case, then unfortunately led to a big problem). If you're going to call that foul, particularly right in front of the bench, just call it.
     
  10. FL.lurker

    FL.lurker Member

    Feb 2, 2016
    You've already changed it from "any strike" to "a swing at someone's face." So are you agreeing that the multiple strikes to the shoulders, arms, bodies, etc are not automatic red cards?

    As to an attempt, sure if it's a wild swing. But something like Jones did that doesn't make contact, you're just making up your own interpretation. Whether or not it may have been correct in the past is just as relevant as old interpretations of Law 11 when calling offisde.
     
  11. chaoslord08

    chaoslord08 Member

    Dec 24, 2006
    Fayetteville AR
    Club:
    West Bromwich Albion FC
    Country:
    United States
    Jones absolutely made contact. Replay sportscenter showed makes that 1000% clear. I couldn't get the pause timed where I wanted it but this is good enough
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    Maybe I jumped into the middle of a debate that I didn't want to be in. I've documented several times before that one of my biggest pet refereeing peeves is when someone asserts "any strike is a send off." Of course that's untrue! As you point out, a plain reading of the Law says there are careless and reckless strikes. We call such fouls all the time on aerial challenges or flailing arms that accidentally hit an opponent when someone is shielding. I think we're in complete agreement on this fact if I'm understanding you correctly.

    My issue and why I posted and am responding now is that it's a different standard at a stoppage. Trying and/or succeeding to strike someone in the face at a stoppage is VC. Just like trying and/or succeeding at headbutting someone is VC. At a stoppage, any strike at the face is excessive force or brutality, which are the standards. The text supports this, tradition supports this and the expectations of professional players supports this. What Jones did last night is universally a red card.
     
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  13. FL.lurker

    FL.lurker Member

    Feb 2, 2016
    Not trying to suggest otherwise. Just the hypothetical that IF he didn't, I can't see that particular action being justified as red.

    I mostly agree. My two points are
    1. If they included the words "deliberately strikes... unless the force is negligible" surely there must be SOMETHING in between red card contact and no contact that is not a red.
    2. I think we've all probably let someone off for a yellow for an attempted strike and doing so is universally accepted depending on the circumstances, so I don't see how we can turn around and say any ATTEMPT is red. Although yes, it is viewed much differently at a dead ball.
     
  14. chaoslord08

    chaoslord08 Member

    Dec 24, 2006
    Fayetteville AR
    Club:
    West Bromwich Albion FC
    Country:
    United States
    That's my fault, then. Sorry about that. I'll read closer next time.
     
  15. soccermitchell

    soccermitchell New Member

    Mar 2, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    Gif view of the Jones situation.
    https://t.co/O3DWBTO5tA
    To me it looks like he was trying to push the ECU player just like the ECU player was pushing him but when the ECU player grabbed at his arm it went up into the face before Jones was able to get the push on the shoulder. But it could have appeared to be a strike aimed at the face.
     
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  16. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    All of the debate notwithstanding, Jones was an idiot and naive for even putting himself in this
    situation. These guys have got to get more discipline and self control and learn to get away
    from these confrontations. Even more so at the international level. They may avoid punishment
    at domestic level where there are different criteria and some of the referees are not as strict.
    I don't accept the BS about heat of the moment, adrenaline, hormones or other excuses.
    These are professional players at a top international tournament. It has happened previously
    with US players in World Cups.
    And yes, any referee would jump at that opportunity to even up the sides, thus removing any blame
    to himself. You could see the reaction of the Ecuador coach towards the end anyway, calling the referee a whore.
    Imagine his reaction if it had been 11 v 10 as well!

    PH
     
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  17. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Country:
    United States
    Shouldn't the coaches also have more discipline and self control?
     
  18. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Whataboutery???

    PH
     
  19. BTtotheP

    BTtotheP Member

    Sep 2, 2014
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    To be fair, I think Boots was referring to the continued presence of the ECU coach behind the bench after being dismissed. That argument is substantially less terrible, although I don't agree with it.
     
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  20. BTtotheP

    BTtotheP Member

    Sep 2, 2014
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    I will agree that my earlier blanket statement is not supportable under the 2016/17 Laws, and I retract it.

    I still classify Jones's actions, in context, as VC. contact or no (and there appears to be non-negligible contact, IMO). A swing at the head with the fist during a stoppage while the victim is in view is impossible to interpret otherwise.
     
  21. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Country:
    United States
    You're suggesting that Jones needs to have more control otherwise the ref will be happy to equalize so that the ref can avoid the lack of control from a coach. Seems like a double standard.

    (Though to be fair, if you're talking about the Ecuadorian head coach, the ref dismissed him as well)
     
  22. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    No, that's not what he's saying at all. Whether it should be or not, the simple reality is that when there are two players who do something in close proximity, there is a tendency in referees to have one send off or none. That means that when an opponent is being sent off, it's a really poor time to do something stupid.

    In a vaccuum, a ref might have found an excuse not to send off Jones. But where it happens at the same time an opponent is getting sent off, the ref isn't as likely to find an excuse.
     
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  23. BigManIntheMiddle

    Jan 10, 2013
    Inland Empire, CA
    Country:
    United States
    All I can say about Jones, I saw it real time and was curious how it took so long for the production folks and commentators to catch it. Real time first time around it looked like Jones tried to get his fist in there and it was blocked a bit. I can easily see how the 4O made that call. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes Jones.

    Wood was frustrated and earned his caution.

    The high boot should have been red, no doubt about it. We've trirelessly debated the Nani red and other similar situations over the years, this is in that category.

    There were a couple other Cautions not given for tactical fouls in the first half that really contributed to the degredation of the match.

    Overall it wasn't tight enough, and was inconsistent, especially for a knockout match.
     
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  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Country:
    United States
    The good news is that with the possible exception of the Wood yellow (which may not have happened if the game had been restarted correctly) I don't think any of the mistakes changed the outcome of this match or any future matches.
     
  25. Tigerpunk

    Tigerpunk Member

    Jun 17, 2004
    If that's all there was, I don't see a cardable - yellow or red - offense there. I don't see an attempt to strike at all. I can sort of see why the 4O thought there might be, but even then, I think that's pretty shoddy. As I said originally, the hand does not even get close to his face, and I don't think it's even headed in that direction - it's just going outwards; based on this replay, I also note Jones's hand isn't in a fist until after it's withdrawn.

    Maybe there was another incident, but if not, the people thinking this is a straight red (or even any card) really need to justify that. And remember, this is right after he is pushed/struck pretty hard by Valencia.

    I honestly think it was a straight red on Valencia for kicking Bedoya and that's it.
     

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