QF July 7 Russia v. Croatia [R]

Discussion in 'World Cup 2018 - Knockout Rounds' started by mwjppgg, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #276 Guinho, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018

    A PK shoot out simply rewards the bunkering team and let’s the pinnacle of anti-football through. The point is to score goals which involves TRYING to score goals which you can’t without shooting at the goals, which you can’t without advancing the ball toward the opponents goal involving all of the skills and tactics involved in the sport. The PK dishonors all of that and is, in Pele’s Words, a cowardly way to score a goal. He is absolutely right

    And shooting over the bar isn’t a shot *on goal* (which you seemingly ignored). And the notion that teams even can inflate shots on goal from inside the area is ridiculous because that’s what teams are working hard to do so any shot inside the area necessarily means they’ve created a genuine chance

    Your argument is the pinnacle of anti-football. Forget PKs. Just flip a coin
     
  2. cromagnum

    cromagnum Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Croatia always plays better when there not expected to win. If you were from the Balkans you would understand.
     
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  3. Karloski

    Karloski Member+

    Oct 26, 2006
    England
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I very much doubt you are a Croatian supporter. How do I know? Because pretty much every fan of a team in semi's will be a mixture of proud, anxious and complimentary of their opponent.

    The only fans that speak in terms of absolutes and cockiness are fans of other teams, on the periphery, who have a bias for or against a singular team.

    If you are proud of the Balkans, don't do the Croatian fans a disservice on this site by bragging on their behalf.
     
  4. cromagnum

    cromagnum Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    You have no idea what you are talking as you are not Balkan. You don't understand our mentality. We are never cocky lol. We always expect to find a way to lose that is the Balkan mentality but always rise to the bigger opponents. Boli me Kurac za vi englezi. Now go google translate engleska picka.
     
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  5. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hardly. Belgium fans were pretty damned obnoxious about Brazil for example
     
  6. Philip J. Fry

    Philip J. Fry Member+

    Jun 12, 2013
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
     
  7. Mean Machine

    Mean Machine Member

    Juventus
    Italy
    May 23, 2018
    Mandzukic was never injured. Vrsaljko was the player that had to go off due to injury.
     
  8. Karloski

    Karloski Member+

    Oct 26, 2006
    England
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The fact that you keep saying 'Balkan' has exposed you as a non Croatian...so stop trying to speak for them. They have a great team and I'm sure they are proud...what they don't need is people from Albania, Bulgaria etc giving it the big brag on their behalf...as some sudo glorification. Support them by all means, but try to stop hanging on their coattails and embarrassing yourself.
     
  9. Philip J. Fry

    Philip J. Fry Member+

    Jun 12, 2013
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
  10. Karloski

    Karloski Member+

    Oct 26, 2006
    England
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Never seen anything. If a Belgium wants to come here now and bad mouth France......let's hear it.
     
  11. cromagnum

    cromagnum Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Zovi samo Zovi svi ce sokolovi za te zivot dati!
     
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  12. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    No, no and no again. Deciding a football match on the number of shots completely and utterly perverts the fundamental idea of football which is to score. A PK shootout isn’t ideal but it at least keeps that fundamental principle. The objective of a game of football is not to accumulate shots but to score. And yes, 100%, you would see teams shooting again and again and again and again in extra time from pointless positions with no other purpose but to increase their shot meter. And I really don’t get why you want to differentiate shots from inside vs outside the ‘area’ (I presume you mean the penalty area or penalty box). Why? Why is one more valuable than the other? A goal is a goal no matter where it was hit so why wouldn’t a shot be a shot? What’s your next idea? To only count shots made with the right foot? Only count shots made from a 45 degree angle? Only count shots made when Orion is visible in the sky?
    Your idea perverts football. A better suggestion might be to replace the typical penalty kick with a run towards goal from the center circle, similar to ice hockey. Such a procedure would require more footballing skills. Or a different scoring contest that involves skill. But to decide a game of football on who shoots more is like deciding a tennis match on who has the nicer racket.
     
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  13. cromagnum

    cromagnum Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Argentina will be our easiest game. You know who said that Dalic the Croatian coach. Man he must be the most cockiest arrogant person in the world to say something like that. Or maybe just maybe he knows our mentality. Imagine that.
     
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  14. tripwire

    tripwire Member

    Sep 23, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    This manager should have learned by now, but I've seen him do it against Nigeria, Denmark, and again today. This two guys are protected in their clubs by defensive midfielders, and that's how they shine. The minute Modric was allowed to push up, he became the most dangerous player out there again.
     
  15. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Tehran Iran
    #290 Iranian Monitor, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
    The arguments here may have a lot more to do with people trying to feel better about being wrong about certain teams, than how most people around the world who watched the Russia v Croatia match felt about it. Or how even Croatia's coach saw things.
    http://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-wor...els-them-past-russia-and-on-to-the-semifinals
    Russia clearly didn't bunker against Croatia. I had already mentioned I didn't expect them to do so either. Croatia is not Spain. The idea that Russia, as hosts, would bunker against a good (but not elite level) side like Croatia at home simply ignores the effect pedigree and various other factors, including self-image and the image of the opponent, (i.e. how Russia sees itself compared to a small Balkan country in eastern Europe) in the tactics teams choose.

    Anyway, congratulations to the Russians for giving a spirited performance. And to Croatia for advancing to the semifinal. Most fans here seem to have been rooting for Croatia and the final 4 - despite missing the top contenders - ends up being composed of sides which aren't total outsiders and would have been regarded at least as dark horses.

    On the latter, when it comes to pedigree, and how their chances were rated before the tournament got underway, England is not Germany and Croatia is no Spain. Belgium is no Brazil and among the semifinalists, only France would have been among the top 4 favorites. But none of them are the kind of long shots that would make anyone feel that the pecking order they have grown accustomed to seeing in football has been turned totally upside down. And those who don't want to see that pecking order totally upset and unraveled can still take some solace that in a World Cup when most of the usual suspects such as Brazil, Germany, or Argentina (or, Italy, being eliminated before the tournament started) are missing from the semifinals, and when the teams with the biggest stars in the game right now aren't there either, that at least the ones who made it do have many of the other famous players they watch in their favorite leagues in Europe.
     
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  16. tripwire

    tripwire Member

    Sep 23, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    That's so much better than the current form.
     
  17. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    The point is to score, not to kick balls from the spot. Why not remove the keeper to make it easier? A PK is not in anyway analogous to actually scoring a goal. It is a punishment for fouling, not a scoring method That’s an absurd argument.

    And you answered your own question: why limit it to the area (And yes, good to see you aren’t so ignorant that at least you understand that I mean the 18 yard box) and to shots on goal: to eliminate meaningless shots just to run up the tie breaker.

    Scoring in soccer involves moving the ball toward the goal and then moving it into the goal. You seem to think that the moving it toward the goal is irrelevant to the sport (Are you perhaps English or Scandinavian with their love of the long ball?). So, if you are shooting at the goal, on target, from inside the area, you’ve created a genuine high probability (in soccer terms) scoring chance

    PKs reflect absolutely nothing of the actual game. It’s an artificial and contrived situation designed as a restart after a foul. You virtually never see a deadball shot at the goal with no defenders nearby. Never ever

    So, if you want to retain something related to the actual point of the game, shots on goal is vastly better

    And it is far far more related to playing the actual game than sticking 11 players in the box for two hours and then flipping a coin. That just incentivized teams that don’t bother to even try to engage in the game’s central purpose, namely to score goals. You are saying that not trying to score goals and then getting a free bonus pack of five shots is better the. Looking at which team did a better job of actually playing the game. I can’t believe anyone can argue that somehow maintaining a commitment no to play is related to playing the game!
     
  18. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #293 Guinho, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018

    Hilarious that you think getting the ball into the area and shooting on goal doesn’t involve skill! It involves the central skills of a team (you somehow also ignore that soccer is a team sport)

    The more I think about it, the more I realize you argument boils down to this:

    That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with the sport today.

    And yeah, MLS used to have that 35 yard shootout. Much better than the PK but still too much bonus for the team that doesn’t even try

    I am tired of rewarding anti-football. Then again, I’m not European
     
  19. Karloski

    Karloski Member+

    Oct 26, 2006
    England
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Some teams have outplayed teams through the tactic of defending superbly and hitting with great skill on the break. You don't understand the intricacies of football if you think shots on goal is always the sure sign of the better team.
     
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  20. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #295 Guinho, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
    Sure, that can work and when it does, you’ll generate a goal, or ar least a shot on goal from inside the area (Eg, a real chance) if the keeper saves or a defender blocks. (Nothing, though, if the defender keeps you from getting the shot off or you miss the target)

    Remember, if you’re defending well, your opponent isn’t getting shots on goal from inside the area.

    A team can win this tie breaker by defending well to limit the opponents’ real chance for SOG with the area while hitting on the counter. Here, the good counter attacking team will win by limiting the opponents chances to fewer than the number generated by breaks. (If you’re giving up a lot of shots on goal in the area, you aren’t defending well)

    In this case, such a team might win the tiebreak 3 SOG to 2 by frustrating the other team for 90 minutes. That’d be different from an end to end game where both teams have many SOG within 18, but the better creating team might have 6 chances to the other team’s 4, say.

    What a team can’t do is pack the box and then hoof it up field over and over and hope to win on the coin flip if PKs.

    I understand the nuances of the game better than you lot who don’t seem to understand the shots on goals rewards solid defenses, provided the actually also generate chance of their own
     
  21. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    SF North Bay
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    If PK shootouts were equivalent to flipping a coin, Germany wouldn't always win them.

    It takes nerves of steel to perform successfully in PK situations. Some players have it, and some don't.
     
  22. Karloski

    Karloski Member+

    Oct 26, 2006
    England
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    People have already pointed out to you that useless shots on target from distance change the mindset of players who may usually try and skillfully work the ball into better positions. The concept is anti-skill.
     
  23. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Germany wins because they train PKs. And they don’t always win. Generally the bigger influence isn’t being German. It’s shooting first which gives you a 60-40 advantage.

    The PK shootout is stupid on many many levels
     
  24. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Tehran Iran
    I wouldn't mind shots and shots on goal used as a tie-breaker in the group stage before a coin flip when everything else is tied. But I would not favor at all a situation where the game and its tactical dynamics are suddenly being affected by meaningless and often misleading stats.

    A simple shot on goal straight into the keeper's hands which doesn't in any way threaten to score isn't worth even a fraction of a chance that is created even if it doesn't even end up with a clear shot being taken. The purpose of football is to find a way to score more than the opponent. And there should be no rule that will change that being the test to decide the winner.
     
  25. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    And I have already pointed out that their reading comprehension is pathetic

    Since when is a shot on goal from inside the area “from distance”? At most it is 20 yards out from the corners. That’s close and it’s dangerous. Don’t like it? Mark it at 12 yards. Are you telling me taking PKs qualifies as “shots from distance” too?

    And it is way more pro-skill than packing the box for two hours praying for PKs. The notion that PKs are pro skill is beyond stupid given the evidence of bad teams packing and praying.
     

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