Stadiums have even started to be built yet, but your already saying many will die... Infrastructure, building roads and airports where going to happen anyway, they aren't directly linked to the World Cup which is 8 years away!!!
Are you saying that we should simply ignore the current level of construction-related deaths and assume that such fatalities won't occur during stadium construction? A supposedly independent review commissioned by the Qatari government reports this week: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/25/qatar-migrant-death-toll-report
Are you saying we should report every single death that occurs in Qatar between now and 2022 and then after the world cup you'll stop because you won't care afterwards even though deaths will still happen? And all this on a football forum?
For that to be fair in regards to Qatar, we should take in account what happens in relation to deaths in all countries in the world, so we can have figures over which we could compare better of what happens in some countries in regards to others (in this case, to compare Qatar with others). As an interesting fact, according to the "CIA world factbook", Qatar today (pretty similar in all Gulf states, btw), holds the lowest "death or mortality rates", within countries of the whole world (in other words, it means that it is less likely to die over diferent causes in these countries, than whatever happens elsewhere). And this figure includes among them, all types of deaths (natural causes, accidents and disease), in a given time period (one year), in regards to every 1000 persons of population, where there is no separation within transitory inmigrants or permanent residents to the country, as it considers every person the same without any discriminatory issue regarding them. The "CIA world factbook", from where these lists are from, is made by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), for the USA governments interest and for public domain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortality_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_death_rate
Nice strawman. I don't want a World Cup held where hundreds (or more) die during construction of stadia and related infrastructure. Given what seems to be the extremely high rate of construction-related deaths in Qatar, surely it makes sense to investigate and determine what is going on here before we have a situation where a World Cup is held on the backs of dead (foreign) construction workers? Even FIFA understands there is an issue here; why the continued denial on your part?
Pretty similar to the one for other countries in the world. Costruction workers are among the most hazardous type of jobs, always prone to accidentability with fatal results. In any case, more workers die in the oil industry than those who die in construction sites.
Do you have something to back this up? I see single figure deaths for the Sochi Olympics and Brasil '14; with the construction worker death figures we're seeing for Qatar I doubt that would be the case for Qatar '22 absent changes in working practices there. Hence the desire of FIFA and many others to investigate what's going on there.
Oh no its not. Qatar's death rate among construction workers is 8 times the average for industrialized nations, and 10 times that of the U.S. And those statistics from the CIA factbook are rosy because Qatar doesn't bother to count migrant statistics or include them in any of their totals.
You can start reading here, where it says that only in the USA among construction workers fatalities are about 200 over each 100.000 workers per year. Although there is lots of other literature concerning safety and health issues among construction workers, and about the hazards that affect this sector of industry : http://www.ilo.org/oshenc/part-xvi/...d-safety-hazards-in-the-construction-industry And if in Qatar, construction workers are about 1.200.000 workers, with simple maths extrapolating the USA figure to it, would imply : 200 deaths x 12 (1.200.000 = 100.000 x 12) = 2.400 deaths in just one year would be expected as normal Curiously western tabloids only get concerned on about 4000 fatalities till the 2022 WC begins, and as till their WC is 8 years from now, that would mean 2.400 total deaths in one year, multiplied by 8 (the years left till the 2022 WC begins, it means that 8 x 2.400 = 19.200, which means that 19.200 would be the normal expected amount of fatalities for that 8 year period of time for that amount of workers. 2 conclussions here : first, western tabloids don't have a clue about what they are talking about and all they are doing is what is usually called as "yellow journalism". secondly, if these suposed numbers of about 4.000 are the real figure, for mortality among construction workers in Qatar till the WC begins, instead of making complaints on the issue, everybody should give Qatar congratulations on having so low numbers of total deaths, and maybe even asking them for advice in order to minimize fatalities in their respective countries as well.
So, you are saying then that the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) bases all its knowledge on figures given by other countries to them.... ........ ( If so, the CIA, should really switch its name for CDIA, Central of Dis-Intelligence Agency .......). As the other poster suggested it, Do You, have something to back this up ? (please don't come up with links to other "yellow press" pages. This is suposed to be a serious discussion)
You seem to be using a figure for "labourers". Maybe that's the right category, but that could cover a multitude of sins. Additionally, the same paragraph uses a number for 1992. It's not clear whether other figures there relate to that year or a more recent year. OSHA says 775 construction worker deaths in 2012: https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.t02.htm 2013 figures (couldn't find 2012) show 5.386m employed in construction industries: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t17.htm That gives a death rate of approx. 14.62 per 100,000. I suspect you're off by a factor of almost 15 in the US death rate. Does Qatar publish numbers on the web for employment and deaths in its construction industry?
To answer my own question, apparently not. P67 of this very long document: http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/qatar0612webwcover_0.pdf
There's no denial, the FACT is the world cup is going there and the FACT is, it takes a world cup for people like yourselves to find out about places like this. If the world cup didn't go there, then you'd never care.
Not that I'm aware of. In any case, I don`t pretend to be the devil's advocate here. Concerning construction workers in Qatar, "crude death" of them, may probably not be the best issue over which to focus over (although for "sensationalist" press, "numbers sell"), as there are lots of issues of how to present subjective data over it, by both sides the same (those against and by those in favour), but it would be better to focus (imho) mainly over working and living conditions for those workers, instead, where undoubtly they are sub standard and in some cases, completely abusive, compared to those in most other countries. Unfortunately, this last thing is not so striking, as what talking about death can be.
I've seen plenty of discussion of working and living conditions in the media, over a wide range of issues. And anyway surely the likelihood of being killed is a pretty fundamental part of one's working conditions? The hrw report I gave a link to has plenty of text on how unsafe working practices are creating dangers for workers.
http://www.ituc-csi.org/IMG/pdf/the_case_against_qatar_en_web170314.pdf The damning numbers have been linked multiple times, but there it is again.
yes, but it excludes from those figures every other construction worker whom works transporting goods, or whom work in the logistics for the preparation of construction sites, so those figures of total deaths might be lots higher than those that appear there. According to the same data, only in transportation related deaths, there were 1789 fatal injured workers, but it doesn't specify related to which type of industry did it happen. So for the issue, those 775 deaths is just a biased account, which invalidates any possible account of how many total construction workers, really died. Of course any calculation based on those figures, will be equally biased. In any case, Out of which 3.389,9m belong to specialized trade contractors, in which case are not subject to the same hazardous issues that produce most fatal accidents or injuries among this type of workers, which only leaves 1.996m employed directly in construction sites, according to the same chart and its respectful explanations. So with all of this taken in account, as total number of deaths may be higher than those from OSHA and the population over which it expresses itself is lots lower than the one that appears in the BLS. So the mortality rate for the total construction workers for the USA, might be lots higher than the one, you calculated afterwards. In any case for my previous example, my numbers could be lower, as I only used the info provided by the link I posted, mainly as a reference, to stand a point of view on the issue, which as you correctly quoted, they are back from 1992-1993, which undoubtly is outdated info.
ITUC, is an organization biased up to the core. Administratively, they are pretty similar to how FIFA is, so their "executives" are equally as corrupt as those within FIFA. I don't really want to talk about politics here, but lets just say that the ITUC is completely against capitalism, and that as myself only in relation to my football NT, their favourite color is "red". Whatever I may think about them, they may probably not be the best source of independent unbiased info, but they do base most of their opinions regarding working conditions of workers, over some truth. For the case of Qatar, even if Qatar poured all of the gold in the world, over all its foreign workers, the ITUC would talk crap about them, as they hold lots of unresolved issue within each other.
If someone is transporting construction goods then they are going to come under the transportation banner rather than the construction banner. Just as, say, an architect working in the construction industry is going to be under the services banner. That makes perfect sense as they aren't workers directly engaged in construction. According to the linked OSHA figures 677 people died in "transportation and warehousing", 456 of them in "truck transportation". 4.4m were employed under than category. So electricians, plumbers roofers etc don't work on Qatari construction sites?? According to the OSHA figures, 456 (59%) who died were "Specialty trade contractors". Of the workers, 63% were in that category. The rates are pretty even. Hopefully Qatar will release verifiable figures of their own so an accurate comparison can be made.
True, but as we intend to compare construction industry between Qatar and the USA, both nations do have lots of diferences between each other, so you can`t simply compare one to the other, without taking in account the diferences that exist between both nations and what goes in regards to its workers. In the USA, most of transportation will happen on roads, highways and by the use of infrastructure which is already built, where a greater proportion of fatal accidents sure must be due to road accidents. While in Qatar this transportation of goods and material for the construction area, is still in the process of being built, as it doesn't exist yet, so a very big percentage of the construction workers in Qatar, do work in transportation and in all the logistics that it implies. So both countries aren't comparable over this specific issue. While in the USA you could separate them both in diferent banners, in Qatar both are totally bonded to each other and almost constitute the same thing.
I'd like to see something to back this up like real statistics because absent that it's just conjecture. But... given that the Qatari government seems unwilling to provide numbers for workers, deaths, injuries etc, all we have to go off are the numbers that various organizations have pieced together. And those numbers don't paint a very pretty picture however you choose to categorize workers. Maybe that will change when this Qatari-commissioned report is released tomorrow.
Of course they do. I never said they don`t, but in regards to them, there are lots of other issues that make them diferent than those regular construction workers, and as I said before, most not even subject to the same hazardous issues that affect them both. Besides most specialty trade contractors only enter into this equation, once most of the rough infrastructure is already built, which is not the case for Qatar yet, as it is still in process of being built. Very likely, that once more and more "specialty trade contractors" get hired in Qatar, death rates will increase accordingly, as well.
As up to today, total deaths in construction sites appear to be, as normal given the amount of workers, which has been publicly recognized by Qatar officials, and also by the Indian embassy in regards to its expatriates citizens working there (which are about 500.000). Of course everything is conjetures now, but the same thing goes when some "interested" or "biased" people, start creating or inventing figures, projecting them towards the future as whatever they wish for, but usually as being bad, which up till today, have never happened.
I just don't see how the numbers constitute anything approaching "normal". Even accpeting your arguments regarding transport workers - which I really don't - we're looking at a US death rate of around 17 per 100,00o. That would equate to at most 200 deaths per year to be equivalent. The numbers suggest at the very least five times that. The ITUC says 8 so that probably gives you a reasonable bound. I know you are dismissive of the ITUC, but it's basing its estimates only on the known deaths of workers from Nepal and India, who comprise only half the foreign workforce. The Indian embassy is doing a piss-poor job of protecting its migrants. It ought also to be pushing for more information from the Qataris. In the meantime, given the total of known deaths, there's every cause for concern. There's one way for the conjecture to end, namely for the Qatari government to issue verifiable figures for the number of construction workers, deaths, injuries etc.