ok, I agreed with you. Now please quantify the difference between Dembele and Pulisic. Edit: I see you say you could post stats. No, I meant $$'s
Sometimes I look at Pulisic's well-being through the lens of my son's trials and tribulations at his club. When my son first arrived at his current club and walked into a starting spot, I noticed quickly one or two kids (at the behest of overzealous fathers no doubt) never passing to him (often foregoing the obvious pass/layoff to my son for the dubious option of trying to dribble through defenders). I tried writing it off as the kid has his head down and can't see the pass, but after a while the intentionality became very obvious. The funny thing is that the kids get along so I imagine it is hyper competitiveness. Dembele appeared to correct this behavior after the winter break, but it appears to be back and it is not only detrimental to Pulisic, but to Dortmund's ability to win.
Transfermarkt has Dembele at €28m & Pulisic at €12m. That means the former is worth 2.33 times the latter, in their opinion.
This. When they are both "on", they are both amazing and play very, very well together. They weren't both "on" today. CP never saw the ball, so no idea what was up with him. Dembele seemed, to me, to be trying too hard to win the game single-handedly. Have to admire his confidence, but it's obvious you can question whether it made the team better.
... PERFORMANCE DATA 16/17 Competition Total 16/17: apps: 36 5G 10A mins/G 403 total mins:2.017 1.Bundesliga 25 3 6 427 1.280 Champions League 9 1 3 581 581 DFB-Pokal 2 1 1 156 156 PERFORMANCE DATA 16/17 Competition Total 16/17: apps: 42 8G 17A mins/G 355 total 2.836 1.Bundesliga 27 6 11 278 1.669 Champions League 10 2 5 385 769 DFB-Pokal 4 1 330 DFL-Supercup 1 68 This is not hard to grasp. You need some more?
I'd agree with this. Dembele has physical gifts that CP doesn't have. However, there's a lot of projection built into both of those numbers and Dembele's are more speculative. He could be the next C Ronaldo, but there's a lot of risk in there. Pulisic seems a safer choice, given his already well-advanced decision making.
Dembele plays zero defense and his passes suck....of course he is better attacking because he doesnt track back or play defense. But im not even sure he is anyway....i prefer some defense and solid passing in my players....you know cause that matters in this game. Dembele gives the ball away constantly and is quite selfish.....but most people only want to talk about his incredible pass, instead of the 10 he gave away that lead to counter attacks
Dembele has the worst passing percentage on the entire team......unless you dont think passing matters in soccer lol
Mbapé looks like the best teenager playing the game anywhere. He's what you get when you take the best of Dembélé and combine it with CP's focus and directness. If Dembélé wants to improve he should follow Mbapé around the French NT camp and learn. But he won't.
He's an attacker and if his passes suck so much then explain then explain his 17 Assists in general. Pulisic is not starting for Dortmund (is he anymore?) to be a defender so not sure why you bring that up in this conversation. Both are used as attacking mids, not defenders. I agree that way Pulisic is a great passer... ....for an American but his passing in the final third is one of the weak links of his game. His crossing is mediocre at best. He's not a great passer so I don't see how that can be used as an advantage vis a vis Dembele's skillset when passing is neither of their forte. POST NUMBERS, NOT GENERAL STATEMENTS AND VALUE JUDGEMENTS WHICH ARE BASED ON YOUR IMPLICIT BIASES.
Not surprising to me, but I don't think it will last. Dembele is a talented player, but he consistently makes horrible decisions, and has god awful vision and judgement. For now half of what makes Pulisic so exciting is what shows up when you watch him play, rather than the actual meat head stats, or stronger level analytics. Finding the right pass, the right through ball, the right run, the right teammate, the right combination play, the right way to exploit a current situation on an attack: Pulisic is consistently executing all of these skills, these mental and vision based skills brilliantly. there aren't counting stats or ways to measure all of these abilities terribly effectively, especially when it comes to meathead stats like goals or assists. And to me, this is where Dembele is lacking. he's not making the right runs, he's not finding the perfect ways to exploit a defense when he's attacking. I feel like Dembele is like George Custer or Bull Halsey, while Pulisic is like Rommel or Ray Spruance, Dembele aggression and attack, and mistake prone, while Pulisic seems more detailed, more thoughtful, nuanced and creative, like an Eddie Pope if he'd been a gifted midfielder instead of a center back. Given time, maybe Dembele's mental approach catches up with his physical approach, but right now, Pulisic can be relied on to consistently make excellent decisions in nearly everything he does. Dembele? Not so much. Given time, then, I suspect Pulisic will be the more valuable commodity unless Dembele can start using his brain and his eyes more effectively, right now he's all technique and athleticism and not much else.
I hate when stats are used as the talent indicator in soccer. Even more so comparing Dembele who has started 33 games in the past year for Dortmund compared to Pulisic who's started 20.
CP plays outside while Dembele comes inside more. One has to assume that's the coach's set up. If stats were all that matters, we would not even need coaches. You are entitled to your opinions but they are not "objective".
i already told you, guys like you only look at the good things he does and ignore the negative.....outside of one good play in that game an hour ago, he was absolute trash....he has a 64 percent pass success rate.....that is pathetic at this level of soccer. The stats you are bringing dont mean a thing to me......Josh King has more goals this year in the PL that Phillipe Coutinho, does that mean King is better than Coutinho? lol.....go ahead ill wait
You are a BVB fan and I will defer to you, but the run and pass for Reus in this game was pretty special. I've seen him make some incredible runs to get past a player and into position to make a telling pass with the ball at his feet multiple times this season. He's a pretty special player. I understand the bitterness about the balls he gives away, but isn't that what you want out of an attacking player? Try to pull off some high degree of difficulty shiite? I think a few years of seasoning will see him make much better decisions, but it would seem right now, he plays at times like a 19 year old.
I'll add a bit of details based on #'s that aren't terribly helpful since one of the chief critiques of Dembele is how often he ignores the runs of his teammates to try to pull a Messi vs Getafe '06, instead of dishing to teammates freed up by his attention grabbing runs. Do they have stats yet that can confirm such idiotic decision making with numbers? If they do great, let's use them, if not, it's a nebulous, anecdotal comment that is based on something tangible but not usable for statistics as yet. Anyway Dembele has played essentially 25% more in both the Champions League and the Bundesliga than Pulisic. He's got 16 goals to Pulisic's 4, and 16 assists to Pulisic's 8, so quadrupling and doubling the production, though I think it would be a fool who didn't notice how differently they are used, and how the differences impact productivity in counting stats. In terms of passing, Pulisic is hitting on 80.1% of his passing in the Champions League to Dembele's 73.9%. and 73% in the Bundesliga compared to Dembele's 64.8%. In terms of dispossesion, Pulisic has been more effective in the Champions League than Dembele while the reverse is true in the Bundesliga, there's a weird stat that is defined as "bad control per game" which Pulisic is superior in as compared to Demebele in (2 and 1.4 in CL and BL compared to 1.7 and .5 for Pulisic). For a variety of reasons it's difficult to compare because positionally, they don't play positions that feature the same requirements with consistency, abecause Dembele has played about 25% more in BL and CL games than Pulisic, and because it seems quite clear that what they're being asked to do results in situations that aren't consistently comparable. If you're playing in the attack in the middle of the park, that's different than playing out on the wing. We also know that Dembele is emphatically dampening Pulisic's opportunities for production: WE CAN SEE IT, I don't think it's a conspiracy, I just think it's the way he plays and perhaps he tends to prefer to go it alone or to pass to vets rather than to pass to a fellow youngster. Anyway, there's some #'s for you. Some with Dembele clearly superior, some with Pulisic clearly superior, but considering that the sample isn't really comparable, and it aint terribly helpful or elucidating considering the differences in what Tuchel is asking of them, and how and when he's playing them, and how both impact one another when they actually play at the same time. Comparing them statistically not surprisingly is going to be a bit apples and oranges. Maybe not as much as comparing Eddie Pope as an attacker with Landon Donovan, but still, not like for like in terms of positions, what tasks they're assigned etc. The stats can be a bit revealing here and there, Dembele is more productive in raw counting stats like goals and assists, but other stats reveal that Pulisic is more reliable with the ball at his feet and a better passer as well, but even in these area's it's not helpful, to be fair to Dembele, is it really all that surprising that a guy who plays inside much more than Pulisic will correspondingly have more difficulties with holding possession and avoiding bad touches in such a cluttered environment? Oh and Dembele is also 16 months older, and has played in nearly twice as many games as a professional in the top leagues with Rennes and Dortmund as compared to Pulisic.
ok, now if I'm buying Dembele and offering his salary, how would I quantify transfermarket value and stats into whatever it is I'm offering him. I'd have to compare him to other players. Probably the best comparison would be to others on his team so we're talking apples and apples. Agree? I happen to think Kagawa is a better footballer than Dembele. But Dembele would probably disagree and cite stats. Probably it would be safer for me to go with the stats so I have something concrete to show the owners for their money. I think the stats you used to compare Dembele and Pulisic say it all and the transfermarket value reflects that. I agree with you. I wonder what their comparative salaries are.