Pre-match: Protests, the Anthem, and the Flag discussion

Disrespecting the flag as a demonstration of the power of the Constitution/Bill of Rights is more patriotic and "American" than standing at attention and saluting. A person, no matter who they are, risks nothing with what you consider "respect" whereas what you consider "disrespect" is the very bedrock upon which the supreme law of this land was founded.

 

They're proving they misunderstand the protests; I am taking no liberties with what the vast majority of these people, including some in this very thread, are saying using their own words and statements.

Ok, fair enough.

Context matters.

What are we talking about, off to the side. Context.

Context.

I'm refuting all your points with one word. Because these are bad analogies.

I haven't noticed outrage about the USSF rule in particular. I think there's been some outrage over the reality behind what these protests address, and with good reason. There was also some other misplaced outrage that was actually apologized for. So you can link me to the outrage over USSF rule if you'd like... all I said was it was a gutless way of avoiding "negative" publicity.

The FIFA rule exists for an entirely different reason, and is not about players protesting their own anthem.

This is a slippery slope to saying no one can ever be wrong. Anyone can have any opinion, but I reserve the right to use the rules of logic and rhetoric to tell them they are wrong. And I'm sure they reserve the right to ignore me! What a country.

 

If you want everyone to stand for the anthem, call your local elected official and tell them to bring it to the floor of the congress to make it a law.

Otherwise, mind your business.

 

You are poorly informed or dishonest. I'll give you the benefit of ignorance.

He did not lose to Gabbert on merit. The 49ers refused to play him until he renegotiated his contract in their favor. As soon as he had less injury protection he magically won the job.

He opted out as he was going to be cut.

Why does about the 25th best QB available need to accept a veteran minimum offer?

NFL teams have signed tons of bad QBs without so much as a workout for Kaep. Brandon Weeden is older, worse and didn't play a snap last season. WEEDEN was signed this week.

 

Some of us don't care whether you stand, sit, kneel, jump whatever during the anthem - we just hate grandstanding poseurs

 

Not "refuting", more like smug assertions. See what gets me about this whole thing is the conceitedness.

I don't know all the answers. I know that I can't know all the answers because I experience life through a unique lens made up of unique experiences. I can't know what it's like to be at every socio-economic status in this country, from a Black woman in the Hamptons, to an Asian immigrant in SF's Chinatown, to a White coal miner in West Virginia. It's just impossible.

I can't learn as much about, for example, the prison system in the US, as someone who's worked around it/within it for 25 years. There are depths of knowledge there that I just simply will not get.

This doesn't mean that I can't have empathy for people, or that facts don't matter, or that every opinion has the exact same weight (eg. someone with no knowledge on an issue vs. an "expert" in the same field). But what it does mean is I don't dismiss opinions off-handedly. I may not necessarily change my opinion, but I am under no delusion that my opinion is the be-all-end-all.

Now, onto protests during the anthem/sports in general.

When I consume news media, or articles, or political commentary, I make the conscious choice to consume those things. When I engage in political discussions, online or off, I choose to engage in them. When I watch sports, I want to be making the conscious choice to consume sports, not politics. Of course, there are mediums such as literature, television, and film, which often have overt/covert political messaging, but that's to be expected. When you read Fahrenheit 451, or Catch-22, you know what you're getting into.

But if sports were boiled down into a book, the "cover" would read: "athletic feats by professionals bound by rules", or something like that. But instead of football, there is the incessant drumbeat of political discourse.

And, to make matters worse, it's discourse from people who are anything but "experts". It's not political expressions dictated by people who have some kind of higher understanding of social issues, but people whose opinions and knowledge are by-and-large unlikely to be more insightful or intelligent than any other American on the street.

Perhaps this would be another way to put it. I wouldn't express myself politically on a national stage like, for example, Kaepernick, because I know that my opinions aren't necessarily "expert", and may well be wrong in some respects. I would just happen to do something that gives me media exposure, and it's not for the strength of my arguments or convictions.

 

elaborate please?

 

Actually, the fact that you keep asserting that this is disrespectful or that sports figures shouldn't express protest actually suggests you don't get it.

And to be clear: what is being suggested is that protest is ok, somewhere else, but of course two points
1) that somewhere else is basically out of sight, which is very convenient for those who don't feel issues of racism or police brutality should be addressed
2) you're asking people to show obeisance to a nation that is fairly open that extrajudicial killings of people of color are legal and generally maintains a system of oppression. Surely, it ought to be entirely clear the perversity of imposing such a requirement of people. Frankly, I could understand, for example why black South Africans might not want have wanted to salute the flag of Apartheid South Africa, if that analogy helps you understand. For my part, as I said, as an atheist, I will not pledge allegiance to a nation under god. Period. As long as America wants to expressly exclude me and others like me, then America has no right to demand my respect.

 

Under that theory, the playing of the anthem at all should be your objection, since that's paid for by the US government for political purposes.

 

It's a minor annoyance only lessened by the fact that every single American sport plays it, and it takes up 30 freaking seconds. I can deal with something for 30 seconds. I can't deal with the media circus infecting an arena of my life that I'd rather be immune to such discussions.

If this was kneeling/protest, but I didn't hear about it in excruciating detail 24/7, I wouldn't be in this thread talking about it. It would be quiet background noise, much like the anthem itself usually is. Same with the pledge of allegiance, btw.

To me, it's all akin to seeing advertising. But in this case, instead of just allowing people to be annoyed at advertising, you've made a dozen or so suggestions that people like myself are inherent racists, bigots, and other such unsavory insults. Once again, I invite you to stop responding to me, lest you accidentally insult me 4 or 5 more times.

 

Players kneeling or sitting during the national anthem, while wearing the colors of the nation....so ridiculous that we even have to address this. No, there will be no law that forces any player to stand but:

1 ) - Be prepared to never again be asked to represent the country on its National team ever again. The coach will be thrilled to have to answer questions endlessly while this player is on the roster.

2) - Be prepared to get mercilessly booed by your own fans.

If a player is good with that, go for it. Hope it was worth it buddy.

 

We agree to disagree and this isn't really going anywhere, which is fine, but I'm not going to respond to this whole thing. But I will say claiming that context is important isn't "smug" or "conceited." If you want to use an analogy make sure it's apt.

Even comparing these protests to someone talking during a movie or talking during a work presentation is a huge part of the problem, and indicative of why this is such a polarizing issue; it's not MY fault that you are doing that directly and forcing me to respond to your own weak arguments, but those things will never be equal. Those are BAD analogies. It minimizes what is being done by this peaceful protest movement, it minimizes the purpose for which these athletes take a knee, and perhaps worst of all it actually gives power and credence to anyone who ever wants to be offended by anything, or finds anything disrespectful, completely regardless of context.

You're clearly engaging in good faith, and believe me I appreciate that and don't take it for granted, but we just agree to disagree on a very fundamental level.

But I'm not being SMUG by disagreeing with you. In fact in this very thread I misused logic and misspoke about the realities of enforcing the first amendment in the private sector/workplace. I didn't get all bent because a few people came back at me, I just realized I misspoke in terms of what my actual point was and clarified my position. I didn't call anyone out as being "conceited." I'm not conceited for pointing out your bad analogies. You're wrong to conflate this movement with some annoying millennial texting throughout a movie.

Anyways. Respectfully, we disagree.

 

Who are you talking about here? Kaepernick? Rapinoe?

 

Just hankering for another 'discussion' aren't you?

 

if a player protests something that they feel with their heart is worthy, then I respect that.

It's not as if Howard or Ream someone else are protesting immigration. These athletes who kneel or sit have an actual worthy message to express.

What annoys me is how much American people are willing to stomach. Some get so annoyed not at racism, but at the notion that someone will discuss it.

 

Maybe you need to look up erudite.

 

Odd that you complain so much about something you voluntarily participate in.

If I insult you, it's likely because it's warranted. After all, of the characterization didn't fit, I wouldn't be saying it and it wouldn't bother you so much.

 

Just curious who you meant.

 

Good point. That's how it seemed America used to be.

It's also why have little to no respect for the Warriors, guys like Durant and Curry, who love complaining about political issues they don't agree with but when faced with the opportunity to go to the White House, sit down with Trump and engage in dialogue, state their concerns, discuss differences of opinion, they decide to hide from the opportunity instead.

Sorry, hiding from those you disagree with is not much of a statement. It's cowardly IMO. Getting in a room and opening dialogue carries far more weight. That's where real change will come from. If Reagan can sit down with Gorbachev, then it's quite ridiculous to be afraid to sit down with Trump and hash it out.

 

I hope the players stand for the stupid song but give the black power salute instead of celebrating goals.

I am sure nobody would complain about that.

 

That would be amazing.

 

Dialogue with Trump? How's that working out for Iran?

 

Holy deflection.