I'm fully 100% in favour of promotion and relegation. I think it's a terrific system that enriches the breadth of the game in England. However, before turning up and stamping your size 9s all over the place with the benefit of your expertise, you need to know a few things. 1) the game in the USA is not like it is in England. There are no big clubs in the 2nd tier, waiting in the wings for the chance to shine in the top flight. 2) there are no plucky smaller clubs who could go up and give the MLS clubs a real run for their money - just ones who'd have the option of being completely outplayed each week, or go bankrupt putting out a half-decent team. 3) It is unlikely that any MLS team getting relegated would survive. The clubs are run as businesses, and the owners would rather shut the club down than pay out for a loss-making club. 4) if any MLS club went down and folded, thanks to points 1 & 2 above, there'd be no viable club from below to take their place. 5) MLS isn't a closed shop to keep teams out. It's a closed shop to give the league enough stability to survive. 6) unlike the national tv deal in England, MLS' deal relies on representation in big markets to drive viewing figures. If a team from a big market dropped then that tv region could well pull the plug on their part of the tv deal. 7) unlike the premier league, MLS owners have paid for their place in the league, and many have poured a lot of money is to support the league in leaner years. They would not exactly be keen to see their club go down, and lose that investment. 8) it's a major investment to set up a club from scratch. The nearest we've seen to anything like it in England in 100 years is MK Dons, and that was largely paid for by other investments on the site. Potential owners are not going to go to the huge expense of setting up a new club with the risk of relegation - and losing their investment, as a real possibility. 9) owners are not going to invest in an "MLS ready" set-up in a lower division, as it'd be very hard to not lose a lot of money. 10) the existence of pro/rel doesn't not cause clubs to form. Nearly all of the clubs in the English pro leagues today were formed before pro/rel existed in the country. Nearly all of the new clubs that have formed have either been re-formed old clubs, with an already existing fan base and a nearby ground to borrow, or play at low levels in the non-league game.
I just repped the ******** out of you. Can a mod sticky this to the top of every forum and make it manditory reading ... PLEASE
I've been saying it for years. I just think you took my re-election idea wrong - as being something I thought MLS should introduce, rather than just pointing out that it would be possible to run a sports league differently (from the outset) where neither expansion fees nor pro/rel were necessary.
Well, you nailed it there, so well done. And I am telling you: we're not going to have a league in this country without expansion fees. It's not happening. It doesn't matter what possibility you can come up with, it don't work like that here.
excellent post. I was very much in favor of relegation/promotion years ago. Now i simply don't care. And much of the reason was stepping back from my traditional biases and really looking at the US market. The U.S. sports market is simply very differnt then the English football market. And you have enumerated many of the reasons. well don. One thing i've observed is lower league pro team sports are simply not supported or followed like they are in England. There are some exceptions but it's the exception not the rule. One big thing i noticed and if you ask Americans why they don't watch MLS, lack of promotion and relegation is rarely mentioned. Many will say it's boring, it's slow, soccer fans will say they prefer other leagues, spain mexico, they don't like the style, etc... We've all heard them from fans and importantly non-soccer fans. And you bring up a huge difference. Teams here are more businesses that run sports teams then community clubs. I've noticed the fan mentallity is different too. I don't think you'd see a Spirit of Shankly here. Like if you tried to have a Spirit of Landry Dallas Cowboys owner would tell you to f'off and wouldn't give a rat's ass what that group thought and he'd do exactly what he wanted cause in his mind it's different, He owns the Dallas Cowboys not Dallas. Most supporters in England feel basically they own the club and the "owners" are basically caretakers. Another big difference though is Leagues in England and Europe are set up so that the richest teams can hoard talent and they always always win. I don't think fans of leagues in the U.S. actually like that system. They like parity. They like a salary cap which makes the leagues competitive like the most popular league the NFL, where 4 years ago the 49ers can be towards the bottom of the league, and last year they can be at towards the top. If you have a system like that your big market teams are gonna end up relegated because the playing field is pretty level. And i think that is a huge problem. because like you said. They could easily get relegated and then fold. And honestly i've grown to like the NFL system more then the BPL, simply because every team has a chance to win. And in the EPL, I'd bet my a year's salary, that one of the "big 4" teams wins. I bet it happens next year. And i bet Madrid or Barca wins in Spain. And next year too. Cause they always win. If the same 4 teams won the SuperBowl i don't think Americans would watch. My gut says they don't want that. They want the talent of the EPL but not that system.
MLS, NCAA, NASL, USL, (PDL,- MISL,-W-LEAGUE,- SUPER Y LEAGUE) WPS, PASL, High School soccer and a $$$ to play youth system. What a dysfunctional way to promote and grow soccer in the United States, and all it will bring is more misery to professional soccer in the United States. What kind of leadership is the USSF showing. No wonder were not even in the top ten in the world. It is obvious where the problems lie. A lot of the posters here seem to like the current set up. With all these different entities it gives these posters a voice. If soccer were run correctly many of these posters would have nothing to talk about because their opinions wouldn't matter.
Yeah, and soccer has been working here. Go eat a hot dog, put some mustard on it and go cheer for the Chicago Bulls.
I think what he meant was "Go be a stupid American while you eat stupid American food and watch a stupid American sport, you stupid, ugly American!" But you're right. It was very confusing. I mean.. eat a hot dog, and then put mustard on it?
1. No big clubs..so in England every team in Championship is like Manchester, Chelsea and Arsenal. 2. if the owners decide to fold a team just proves how out of touch the owners are. 3. i'm wondering if San Antonio can fill Toronto's shoes...yes. 4. MLS league = owners,owners, and yes owners. who cares about fans's, even fan's are owner apologists.
No, but Leeds is a huge club. Cardiff, Leicester, Blackburn ... big clubs. Now, I know what you're going to say to that already. I'm going to stop you before you do. No, I'm not saying they're like the "big" clubs that you mentioned. That doesn't mean they aren't big. Or how in touch they are with the state of their business ... if it's failing/failed it goes out of business. How does that prove the owners are out of touch ? Not tomorrow. There is a clear and steep step up that needs to be taken. I'm a Texan, currently reside in SA, am a Travis 250 Member, and I'm saying that. Unless you're talking about stinking up the joint and stealing a few points over the season, then yes. Business does what is good for business. Sooner you get that, sooner you stop looking like a fool.
Fans are the business, no fans come, no team. and the SA point yea their wouldn't be a shake-up imagine SA/Houston/dallas rivalry and Toronto still would play in Canadian club championship.
Here though, the "fans" aren't just soccer fans. There are countless events held at stadiums that keep the owner(s) in business. The business here is sport, not just soccer. Fans are the driving force behind any sport club, true. However, you said something about "being out of touch" ... remember that ? Well once again you've shown how out of touch you are with how things work here ... ... you should read up on the NFL Lockout and why the owners weren't worried about it all too much. We do imagine the Texas Triangle all the time. It's one of the driving forces behind the MLS to SA movement. I really have no idea what you're saying here though.
If a club is a bust and is a financial drain on the owners and the league, what do you expect them to do? MLS and its owners have no desire to see clubs go bust and every desire to expand the league. But, at the end of the day, you can't expect people to keep throwing good money after bad. If a restaurant, clothing store or any other business can't make money, it will shut down. Why is soccer any different? I'm not sure what you mean by this. A San Antonio expansion team would be brought in on its own merits and would have nothing to do with fixing Toronto's current situation. The owners, at least the smart ones, care a lot about making the fans happy. Fans buy tickets, concessions and merchandise. The flip side of that is that the owners have invested tens of millions of dollars into MLS. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to expect to eventually make a profit off their investment. MLS structure seems to be a pretty fair compromise between making the fans happy and giving the owners the chance to make a return on their investment.
Nice reply, you make some salient points and you've also guessed my shoe size! Anyway let me answer some of your points in bold.