Pro/rel do we need it? Serious question

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Ruben Rivas, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Ruben Rivas

    Ruben Rivas Member

    Madrid
    United States
    Apr 1, 2017
    Miami
    I think we do but I don’t know, some of you are experts on the subject.

    After this HUGE failure, do we need to really consider this?
     
  2. Zenitfan

    Zenitfan Member

    May 31, 2001
    Dayton, OH
    People need to pump the brakes on stuff like this. MLS owners will do what is best for MLS. It's not clear what effect missing the world cup will have on MLS viewership/attendance yet (if any). I don't see MLS leadership making any changes based on our inability to qualify for the world cup.
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No. What we need is to start using transcendent talents like Luis Silva.
     
  4. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #4 Guinho, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    I have never understood the argument for this. The fact is individual players face a lot of competition. If you fall short you get fired and someone new replaces you. This is the same approach that baseball takes

    On the negative side, pro/rel creates a permanent underclass of clubs that can't attract investors or maintain the stable base to build on as they yoyo up and down. European leagues aren't that competitive because the same two-four teams always win, taking advantage of the fact that most of the league just can't build the brand or finances to challenge them. I don't think we want a league with four strong teams and 28 weak ones with basically no chance.

    I think Pro/rel is a terrible idea
     
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  5. CA23

    CA23 Member

    Jan 9, 2015
    I think killing the salary cap would make the league better in a shorter time that instilling pro/rel.
     
  6. The Artist

    The Artist Member+

    Mar 22, 1999
    Illinois
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As a fan of MLS I have no interest in pro/rel. I don't think watching bad teams fight for their lives at the end of the season is all that interesting. There's not currently any team in the second division who would improve MLS over what they currently have. Any second division club that wants to grow and invest already has a path to the first division for expansion so no deserving clubs are currently being left out. I'd hate to see a club like the LA Galaxy having to panic buy veterans to avoid relegation or have to sell off their best players because of one bad season.

    But let's look it at exclusively from the USMNT point of view. If we look at top national teams we generally will see that their players spend one or two years with a lower division team before being purchased and then loaned out by the big clubs. A few transcendent talents get noticed by big clubs as youths, but the bulk of the national team will be guys who were good enough to start in the lower division as teenagers but who weren't ready for the first division until a few years later.
    If you look at our national team you won't find that unless you count college soccer as a lower division, and I think most would agree that college soccer doesn't compare favorably to second division soccer in Europe. And it is precisely at that age - 18-20 - that we seem to see the US failing. Players who were able to compete with the rest of the world at 16 and 17 become just pretty good players by 22. We also see that for all the recent investment by MLS in academies (some of which hasn't had time to pay off yet) there still aren't a lot of teens playing in the league. MLS is a league that is very unique in the world of soccer, and not just because of its single entity structure. MLS can afford to bring in Giovinco and Villa and Beckham, but it can't afford to build deep super clubs with world class talent throughout the starting lineup. So MLS ends up being a place that is a little too good for youth players but not so good that the soccer is world class and must see TV for soccer fans.

    So the variables/questions.
    1) Can 30 or 32 well-funded MLS teams create a player development system good enough to capture the NT level youth players (leaving college and lower division teams to develop the late blooming squad players)? With 32 MLS teams you would already have pretty close to the equivalent of two divisions worth of jobs and since the worst team in MLS would, hopefully, be better funded than a typical second division club in Europe, is our system doing the same work, just structured differently?
    2) Can the current "minor league" relationship with USL create roughly the same benefits as having a second division through B teams and loans? Is it all that different to be discovered by Shrewsbury Town, start at the age of 18, and then get sold to Man City than to be playing in an MLS youth team, getting loaned to Richmond at the age of 18, then getting MLS minutes thereafter?
    3) Would second division teams really invest more in youth with promotion an option? That seems to be the crux of the issue. On the one hand, if they knew that building the club could result in sharing in MLS TV money, then they have a strong reason to invest in all aspects of their club. On the other hand, why would training youth players be the pathway to take? Wouldn't they want to do just the opposite and load up on fringe MLS veterans so they could win the league and get promoted? It seems to me that the main barrier to the lower divisions helping develop youth talent is not the lack of promotion but the lack of financial incentive. Sure, USL teams could create their own academies and youth teams, but in this country most parents want the potential college scholarship more than a longshot professional career. In which case the club can't reap the benefits of selling their youth players to further fund their club. So while promotion might lead to more spending on salaries by the most ambitious second division clubs, I'm not sure how it leads to more investment in youth players, which is all that really matters from a USMNT perspective.
     
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  7. JJxvi

    JJxvi Member

    Dec 16, 2005
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Absolutely.

    Right now, the clamps that are on the finances both in the name of stability and competitive balance, have made "MLS" the brand. And that has negative consequences IMO, especially when folks have a generally negative view because the comparison automatically gets made with "La Liga" or "EPL" by many, many fans. The teams should be the brand. Allowing teams who can spend to spend will make certain teams have a brand profile more reminiscent of how we view other sports here. The "Dallas Cowboys" are the brand, or the "LA Lakers" are the brand, or "New York Yankees." Franchise brands in MLS are very weak except in their own local markets. The entire profile of the league would rise if say Seattle, LA (and honestly the Galaxy is the only franchise where they were able to make shrewd outside the cap moves and have done this more than others), New York, Red Bulls, Toronto, etc were allowed to go ahead and spend the resources they have on talent and build nationwide and potentially worldwide reputations for quality play. Thats the only way I see to overcome the negative quality of play connotation that has always been associated with the "MLS" brand.
     
  8. ZeekLTK

    ZeekLTK Member

    Mar 5, 2004
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    #8 ZeekLTK, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    You're looking at it wrong. It doesn't matter what happens at the top, it's all about what happens at the bottom. With a robust pro/rel system, you have teams all over the country who are trying to find the best possible talent in their local communities so that they can win and move up to a high division. Without it, you're leaving the onus of finding talent in a country the size of a continent to just a small handful of teams, which is too big of a task for them.

    Having a big net of teams at the bottom ensures that good players don't get overlooked.

    Our system is completely backwards. Instead of teams going out and looking for talent so that they can benefit, instead it's a "pay to play" system - where the players have to look for a team that will take them, and then pay to be on that team. This leaves a lot of potentially great players completely out of the system if they can't afford to take part in this. Contrast with a system like Brazil or Spain where local teams actively scout and even PAY players to play for them in hopes of climbing up the pyramid to get to the top level. This is why these countries don't miss out on talent, and why we can never seem to find it.

    Just consider the New England Revolution. How can you expect that this one single team can keep an eye on up and coming talent in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachussettes, Connecticut, and Rhode Island??? They can't! But if you had a pro/rel league, you'd have teams in cities like Bangor, Portland, Biddeford, Manchester, Portsmouth, Concord, Keene, Montpelier, Burlington, Providence, Springfield, Hartford, New Haven, and a whole host of cities who would be doing the leg work to find talent in their local areas to try to win their way up to MLS.
     
  9. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
  10. morange92

    morange92 Member+

    Jan 30, 2012
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For awhile I said no, but honestly i'm open to anything at this point. As long as we get a defined roadmap for the changes we plan to pursue for the next 10-15 years, that will address the issues currently affecting soccer in this country from the youth levels up, and we make concrete and aggressive steps towards fulfilling that roadmap, ill be satisfied. Whether that involves implementing a pyramid with pro/rel, a baseball like farm system, etc is fine by me.
     
  11. JackBlack21

    JackBlack21 Member

    Sep 6, 2013
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #11 JackBlack21, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    From another thread I posted in:

    I don’t understand why the promotion/relegation crowd think that’s the solution to all our problems while ignoring the massive financial impact it will have on teams no matter how many times it’s been pointed out to them. Pro/rel isn’t magic that’ll make the National Team better. If anything it’ll make managers less likely to play young players because they want to stay up, just like you see in the English Premier League. There’s more of an incentive to play young players now without the fear of being relegated, but managers just don’t do it.

    Honest question for the pro/rel guys? Do you not understand the financial impact it has for clubs that get relegated? This isn’t England where clubs get £100 Million payments when they go down.
     
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  12. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Pro Rel doesn't fix any of that. It just reduces the capacity of any but the top teams to have extensive scouting networks.
     
  13. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    No. Next question
     
  14. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Will pro/rel make more people care about domestic soccer? If so, we need it. Personally, I tend to believe it's the sport itself that will fly or flop, rather than league organization. Pro/rel won't diminish the flopping and theatrics that are anathema to mainstream U.S. sports culture, for instance.
     
  15. jerseyredd

    jerseyredd Member

    Aug 5, 2010
    NJ
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Consider it? Yes! Is it the magic pill that will fix all problems? No. At this point I am open to just about anything under the sun. Let's be pragmatic but I doubt that big money interests will do it. Because they don't, I refuse to support the MLS. I vote with my money and I am hoping a lot more people do as well. One person alone can't do it so I hope more people join me in saying enough is enough. The ask is simple to the MLS, "Do something or get none of my money!" As far as the US Soccer goes, without new leadership things will not change.
     
  16. ZeekLTK

    ZeekLTK Member

    Mar 5, 2004
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    Yes it does.

    A theoretical 5th division "Keene FC" has guys go check out the local parks and find kids who could play on their team and actively recruit to get the best possible players.

    A (most likely existing) "Keene travel team" doesn't give a ********, they aren't going out looking for players, they are just sitting back waiting for rich kids to sign up.

    And then it's easy to scout - you see Keene FC win promotion a couple times, everyone starts to notice and wants to know "who is making them win so much?" Keene travel team wins, meh, they are just playing against other travel teams, who cares?

    The scouting network is built into pro/rel and just doesn't exist in the current format (because one MLS team can't scout ALL of those cities, it's just not possible - especially in "pay to play" where it's just rich kids, not necessarily GOOD kids).
     
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  17. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stupid post. What the hell kind of budget do you think a 5th division Keene FC has? What level of coaching would such a club have???? Have you thought this through? If the Revs don't have the budget for quality training, drawing around 18K a game and cashing that sweet, sweet SUM check, how is Keene FC?
     
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  18. mthead14

    mthead14 Member

    Nov 5, 2011
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    no we should run the league like the NFL and different from every other league in the world (except Australia?)

    I kid.
    When guys like Godoy get to cruise in MLS so they are fresh for WC Qualifying, something is wrong
    When leading scorers are traded for TAM rather than shopped on the world market, something is wrong
    When Pulisic can't shop his skills among MLS teams but is stuck with having to go to Philadelphia or bolt for abroad, something is wrong
    When David Bingham is left on the bench to serve some MLS only trade related purpose, something is wrong.
    MLS doesn't participate in the market, doesn't incent winning nearly enough, doesn't incent development, and relies on franchise fees (pyramid scheme)
    Yes, Pro/Rel is needed, so is engagement in the soccer market. There is SO MUCH free market incentive that we US soccer clubs can't take advantage of because they work in a closed market.
    What we are missing, the one thing, is a meaningful champions league... if we had that, it would be a no brainer.
     
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  19. mthead14

    mthead14 Member

    Nov 5, 2011
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    who says the revs don't have money for quality training?
    Finding players with potential and getting them sold up seems like a perfectly reasonable way to run a business. Especially when you factor in solidarity payments...
     
  20. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No....

    But I'll bite, even considering I think promotion/relegation is a boring system.

    Promotion/relegation will become a feasible when and only when the following happens... MLS expansion is viable past 36 teams. More, NASL/USL must have at least 20 stable franchises. So, when we have really 50 good clubs with a stable history m. When that happens, there may be a good argument for pro/rel.
     
  21. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I don't think we are talking about five divisions. We could say that all leagues are capped at 24 teams which is how it is in England other than the EPL. If there are three leagues this would mean 72 teams which if probably too many but good for discussion purposes. One would need to make sure that there was a good geographic distribution and it would be up to those teams to develop ways to attract young talent into the system. Look at upstate New York where there is considerable football being played. If Rochester had a way to get promoted they could develop a better way of attracting young players as there would be a road to the top division available.

    MLS is a business model that has outlived its usefulness but I'm afraid it won't change. We have already seen how the NASL is being treated. there has to be a better way to encourage young players to look towards professional careers. Going the NCAA route won't do it.
     
  22. manfromgallifrey91

    Swansea City
    United States
    Jul 24, 2015
    Wyoming, USA
    Club:
    Southampton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do we need it. Yes I do think it would make soccer more known(regionally cared about, and fun for families which generates kids to play) to markets outside of MLS. Kind of like Minor League baseball. More exposure, more training for players that fall through the cracks, more scouting and generates interest in end of season games and makes them matter. More youth academies and coaches. It would long term be a great thing.

    But it only matters of the salary cap is dumped, the dp rule is gotten rid of and other changes are made. And that won't happen.

    So while we need it, it's not possible in the current environment, and probably not for the next 20 years. Not enough soccer stadiums, not enough money being invested. And quite frankly MLS owners will never allow it because it would cause them to lose asset value.
     
  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If the 19 US MLS teams provided quality training, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    I will say this...there’s something in either the culture or structure or both that lets bad “teachers” slide. Ben Olsen hasn’t had any field players properly develop. In a different world, Birnbaum and/or Kitchen would have become good enough to be in the first XI last night.
     
  24. ElNaranja

    ElNaranja Member+

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Jul 16, 2017
    Id rather take my chances with a unicorn s****** a rainbow. More likely to help somehow than this.
     
  25. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What he said...
     

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