Premier League/Football League 2018-19 Assignments and Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by code1390, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Ickshter repped this.
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we're dealing with two different questions. If the question is "was Jesus in an offside position and would VAR have said so?" then the answer is "yes."

    @Bubba Atlanta is asking if the defender's attempt at stopping the pass from connecting would reset offside and therefore allow Jesus to be deemed onside.

    I think the answer is, sadly, "yes."

    The defender has plenty of time to make his decision and enough distance to react with forethought. He chooses to try to play the ball by sliding it away before it reaches Jesus. Jesus is not close enough to be "challenging" him and nothing--other than making a normal run--that Jesus does is a move that makes a clear impact on the defender. It's a deliberate play. I think with what FIFA/IFAB is teaching, that's the poster child for a play that resets offside.

    And, to beat a dead horse, this is also a poster child for why this is a stupid interpretation that undermines the entire purpose of having offside as a Law. The defender has no idea that Jesus is actually 6 inches offside. He has to try to play that ball to stop what is nearly a sure goal (and at minimum an OGSO). So he tries, fails, and the attacking team then gets the benefit by having what would otherwise be a clear offside offence canceled. It's maddening and counter intuitive. But it's the world we live in until someone who matters starts to do some critical thinking.
     
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  3. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yea, I was speaking metaphorically.. ;) Pay no attention to the flair over there...

    Just my sad thought of the day if that is considered a clear and obvious error next season. Going down this rabbit hole has pretty much ruined my enjoyment of watching pointyball for the most part.

    I don't think Jesus's foot and half an ankle created an advantage by being offside. Yet I can easily see this being pulled back out of the net next season.

    #JesseJamescaughttheeball
     
  4. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Totally agree with this. I don't think the plays where the scorer was 6" off are going to compel change. I think a few high profile plays where the scorer is blatantly off but gets to score because of a lunge to try to stop a through ball may lead us to some exception akin to the idea that a save cannot reset OS. At least I can hope.

    With the current standards I think we can absolutely guarantee that there will be nothing remotely close to consistency at lower levels.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m torn.

    Part of me agrees with you. The optics will be so bad that maybe change will be compelled. But from a philosophical standpoint, I could see people saying something along the lines of “well, tough, he had to KNOW that player was offside so it’s his fault.” For example, I could see that argument made with the Toronto situation in MLS earlier this year.

    With the 6” play, no one in their right mind can do anything other than say “of course he has to try to play that ball” unless they want to be intellectually dishonest. So the principle of having the offside law is even further undermined here, though the optics are nowhere near as bad because the decision about OSP is so close.

    I don’t care which way it happens and which instance is more offensive to the powers that be. All I care about is someone figures this out soon.
     
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  6. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I'm probably preaching to the choir, but the "should have known" argument in usually balderdash on a through ball situation for two reasons. First, the defender close to the ball isn't looking back at the targets, he's focused on the dude with the ball. Second, just because one possible recipient of a cross is OS doesn't mean that the ball is going to go to the OSP attacker and not the other one. With modern interpretations of involvement, of course the defender has to try to stop the through ball even if there is an OSP attacker, as an onside attacker could be the one to get the ball.

    This interpretation has managed to simultaneously be extremely difficult to apply and create extreme unfairness in certain scenarios. (Alas, I fear that any "fix" will make it more, not less, complicated.)
     
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  7. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    I think one must also consider the risk that the modern defensive back lines take.
    The thought these days is to play the back 4 (or 3) as high as possible and keep the field very compact. OK...but with that there comes a risk. That risk is that lunges and jabs at a passing ball will have to be made.
    Also note that these same defensive players that at one moment (after a lunge or jab at a through ball) say it's impossible to know and take note if the attacker 10 feet away from them is offside, are the same players who are the first to raise their arm and be experts and sure that an attacker is offside on a breakaway. Live by the sword...die by the sword.
     
  8. Barciur

    Barciur Member

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    Here we go...

    https://streamable.com/rxdt7

    I can't help but feel, based on the VAR reversal in the cup of the headbutt red card, that this would be reversed as well. Red card is given upon information of the AR presumably. The rest of the game the co-commentator spends on talking about how this is harsh and he sees why it's a red card but could have been a yellow and it's all up to interpretation.. Which is annoying, but there goes the media for you.

    What are your thoughts? Would you give a red and.. do you think VAR will reverse that in England, based on what we saw last weekend in the cup? (I think it was last weekend).
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was no reversal in the FA Cup. There was simply no red card given. Taylor gave a yellow and VAR opted not to upgrade it.

    I think there is one angle that shows decently well that he threw his arm into his head. It's off-the-ball and there's no purpose other than using the arm as a weapon. It's a red card to me.

    Again, there is no comparison to the FA Cup.

    However, I think what VAR will make different here is that an AR is going to be much less likely to act on his one and only look with a full recommendation of VC/red card. It's the 11th minute. As an AR, you see what looks like an elbow off-the-ball in your field of vision and you see the opponent go down. You flag and call the ref over the mic and get him to stop play. All good so far. Now you've got two options... say "red card" and possibly being right but also potentially putting the VAR in the spot of either overturning you (diminishing team credibility) or being unable to overturn a borderline red/yellow card. Instead, you can say "at least yellow," referee gives yellow, and then the VAR only upgrades it to red if it CLEARLY is a red card. Given how it occurred, no one will blame you if the VAR has to do that, right?

    So which door do you pick? The answer is pretty obvious.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By the way, it is Oliver for City-Spurs.

    Kind of surprisingly to me, it's Marriner for United-City. I hate to be in the business of negative predictions against a referee, but given the stakes and what we've seen from him this year, that may not go well.
     
    RefIADad repped this.
  11. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    Saturday, 20 April
    12:30 Man City v Spurs
    Referee:
    Michael Oliver
    Assistants:
    Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett
    Fourth official:
    Chris Kavanagh

    AFC Bournemouth v Fulham
    Referee: David Coote
    Assistants: Daniel Cook, Sian Massey-Ellis
    Fourth official: Graham Scott

    Huddersfield Town v Watford
    Referee: Roger East
    Assistants: Peter Kirkup, Derek Eaton
    Fourth official: Mike Dean

    West Ham v Leicester
    Referee: Lee Probert
    Assistants: Roger West, Andy Garratt
    Fourth official: Andre Marriner

    Wolves v Brighton
    Referee: Craig Pawson
    Assistants: Lee Betts, Ian Hussin
    Fourth official: Simon Hooper

    17:30 Newcastle v Southampton
    Referee:
    Anthony Taylor
    Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn
    Fourth official: Kevin Friend

    Sunday, 21 April
    13:30 Everton v Man Utd
    Referee:
    Paul Tierney
    Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Eddie Smart
    Fourth official: Lee Mason

    16:00 Arsenal v Crystal Palace
    Referee:
    Jonathan Moss
    Assistants: Marc Perry, Andy Halliday
    Fourth official: Stuart Attwell

    16:00 Cardiff v Liverpool
    Referee:
    Martin Atkinson
    Assistants: Stephen Child, Harry Lennard
    Fourth official: David Coote

    Monday, 22 April
    20:00
    Chelsea v Burnley
    Referee: Kevin Friend
    Assistants: Matthew Wilkes, Adrian Holmes
    Fourth official: Roger East

    Tuesday, 23 April
    19:45
    Spurs v Brighton
    Referee: Chris Kavanagh
    Assistants: Daniel Cook, Gary Beswick
    Fourth official: Anthony Taylor

    19:45 Watford v Southampton
    Referee: Mike Dean
    Assistants: Ian Hussin, Dan Robathan
    Fourth official: Lee Probert

    Wednesday, 24 April
    19:45
    Wolves v Arsenal
    Referee: Stuart Attwell
    Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Peter Kirkup
    Fourth official: Martin Atkinson

    20:00 Man Utd v Man City
    Referee: Andre Marriner
    Assistants: Scott Ledger, Simon Long
    Fourth official: Craig Pawson
     
  12. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ooohhh... Marriner with the big Manchester Derby. Interesting..

    EDIT: Now I read that Mass had that before this was posted. Sorry Mass, must've skimmed your post, and yes, I agree that this could get ugly..
     
  13. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    If this Man City-Tottenham game finishes 1-0 (BTW, Oliver solid as usual - he's all over things like we expect), then it's very conceivable that the Manchester Derby Wednesday could set the final four weeks. I just don't see how it doesn't go sideways with Marriner in the middle. I hope I'm wrong.

    EDIT - how calm did Oliver look booking Sterling and Vertonghen for their little dust-up? It's in stoppage time of a Top Six rematch following one of the most emotionally draining games I've ever seen, and Oliver looked like I would booking a couple of U14 boys in the ninth minute of a Saturday morning game. Talk about the calm in the storm. Neither Sterling nor Vertonghen even offered an argument.
     
  14. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    And bodies litter the field ...
     
  15. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    There was a point in the second half where a City player got bowled over, Oliver waited, the player got up and started dribbling. Advantage.
     
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  16. LampLighter

    LampLighter New Member

    Orlando Pirates FC
    Apr 13, 2019
  17. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
  18. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    At live speed, I can understand how Oliver thought JV got a touch on the ball.

    Using VAR, it's a penalty. This is the type of call that VAR is made for.
     
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  19. LampLighter

    LampLighter New Member

    Orlando Pirates FC
    Apr 13, 2019
  20. LampLighter

    LampLighter New Member

    Orlando Pirates FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    Sorry if I'm posting to much but I don't have any games today haha. This play will probably lead to some discussion though.

    https://streamja.com/2Ay3
     
  21. bothways

    bothways Member

    Jun 27, 2009


    My reaction to this

    Also,in Newcastle vs soton..if anyone has footage..would anyone have gone dogso on the block by ward prowse on almiron
     
  22. bothways

    bothways Member

    Jun 27, 2009
    Lamps..u stole my,thunder :)
     
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  23. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    The referee couldn’t have waited to see if the keeper would actually control the ball or see the ball booted upfield?

    This is really, really bad.
     
  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Sometimes the distance is just too great for DOGSO at the professional level. Defenders have speed too.

    I think basically you can't really have DOGSO in your own half at the professional level unless everyone is back in the penalty area.

    I'm assuming that's why he didn't give the red card and I think PGMOL would support his decision there and want a yellow there.

    You can't just throw players out on a whim/hunch at that level. At the amateur level, a red card is expected and warranted.
     
  25. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Speaking purely on the legitimacy of a DOGSO on this play, I actually think the opposite of you. At the Premier League level, I think this is a DOGSO. The speed of Almiron with the ball not moving that much away from the goal increases the idea of DOGSO at the high professional level for me.

    At the amateur level, I don't think this is a DOGSO. The ball that far ahead of a player near midfield means that distance to the ball and to the goal doesn't make it enough for me to think DOGSO.

    Now I could definitely consider a VC red for Ward-Prowse for the cross-body block on Almiron. Absolutely no attempt to play the ball at all + speed of Almiron + complete play on the player by JWP = distinct possibility of VC.
     

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