Premier League 2019-20 Assignments and Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by balu, Jul 20, 2019.

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  1. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    A more interesting discussion took place on ESPN FC last night (you might be able to see this segment on the ESPN Soccer website: https://www.espn.com/soccer/?src=com but I don't know if this requires a subscription to ESPN+). In the studio were Steve Nicol and Craig Burley with Stewart Robson in London (all three well known defenders). All the discussion is in the first 10 minutes of the webcast. Nicol said that the reasoning behind it not being a penalty was the deflection off Bernardo Silva into Alexander Arnold's arm, which as we all saw was quite away from his side. Had it not hit Silva, it would have been a penalty. Burley agreed after some discussion and Steward Robson came up with an interesting perspective that I hadn't thought about. Since Alexander Arnold "directed" the ball to a Liverpool player and the resulting series of passes and poor clearance(s) ended up in a goal. He said maybe this goal should have been called back because of a hand ball in the build up.
     
  2. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member+

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except for Gundy's poor clearance! City had touched it twice before the goal was made. An absolute cracker to my dismay...
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah. On top of that--and though it's not being widely disseminated yet--it seems IFAB literally just said (in response to DFB questions) that the handball standard during and/or starting an APP is not the same as accidental handball to start "create a goal-scoring opportunity." That adds another layer of confusion, but it's not unexpected.

    As to my other point about an OFR leading to a different result, take this clip from the U17 WC:

    https://streamable.com/1rhnz?fbclid=IwAR02cSrlxzj2G6h1t_qH_PyiYfgQiiHXJ1nYr13eJZ_CALA9jUXiEZC0yPA

    Penalty awarded. VAR determines there was an punishable handball offence in the build-up (whether you view it as a deliberate handball or an accidental handball that creates a goal-scoring opportunity isn't entirely irrelevant, but the answer to what the VAR thought is unknowable). Referee agrees, so the restart is a DFK for Australia.

    So again, if the VAR had determined that Liverpool's handball was a penalty, in any other competition with VAR, Oliver would have went to the monitor and, if he agreed, would then be compelled to call the accidental handball against City and the restart would have been a DFK for Liverpool in their own penalty area. Of course, if he didn't agree that it was a punishable penalty, the goal for Liverpool would have stood.

    It goes without saying that we are over-complicating things. Introducing video review with intricate protocols does not lend itself to a sport that never had natural prolonged stoppages.
     
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  4. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I didn't see a definition for DFB on the acronym page; did you mean DFK???
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's the German FA.
     
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  6. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    That’s the German football association
     
  7. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    The bigger issue, as a fan who is not a ref, is poor communication.

    The IFAB has done a horrible job communicating the rules around handball to the footballing community at large, and the individual leagues have done a horrible job developing communicating protocols to enable referees to communicate with fans in the stadium and/or watching on TV.

    If the Liverpool goal being discussed had been called back, all hell would have broken loose at Anfield, because it would have been impossible for the ref to communicate his decision and logic to the fans in the stadium.
     
  8. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    I know what each of the words in this tweet mean individually but I haven't the faintest idea what he's trying to say
     
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  9. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    I don't know if you read @AremRed's words differently from me but if the question was whether or not the Liverpool goal would have been wiped from the books if VAR had awarded a penalty for handball on the other end of the pitch, the answer to that is unequivocally YES, and it's not even a question of VAR rules — it's a fundamental principle of Law 10:

    upload_2019-11-11_19-14-23.png

    If City are awarded a penalty for handball, then Liverpool have committed an offence and thus cannot score a goal.
     
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  10. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It just sort of struck me how much pressure is on UEFA to get things right with EURO 2020. You have several of the most popular leagues in the world, all using VAR a little differently (one a lot differently) with all having varying degrees of controversy (one a lot of controversy). We focus mostly on England--obviously so in this thread--but Italy is having more and more issues. Germany seems to have sorted itself out mostly, but the standard there for intervention is different than Italy or, say, France. I haven't watched enough Spanish soccer this year to know how VAR is going, but there are a lot of eyes on that league so that's another standard.

    All these fans of all these leagues are going to have their eyes focus on one tournament next summer. Yes, VAR is in UCL, but how many Liverpool fans pay attention to how VAR acts, for example, in the Dinamo Zagreb-Shakhtar Donetsk match? The controversies that are happening in UCL are going to be magnified exponentially when there are only 2-3 matches a day and most of the world and all of Europe is watching. As has been said ad nauseum, FIFA got lucky in 2018--a combination of limiting VAR to like 6 guys plus not really calling any red cards or non-handling PKs after the first round. There's no way UEFA will get that lucky again.

    When England gets eliminated via an OFR or an obvious penalty isn't given via VAR to Italy or there is a glaring discrepancy from one match to the next with red cards or handling penalties... yikes. It's a developing powder keg and the attention we're going to see all season in the EPL is only going to make it worse in the English press. I would not want to be Rosetti right now.
     
  12. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
  13. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe it's like assessments here in the US where a 72 out of a 100 is actually a decent score.
     
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  14. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    One of the major papers in The Netherlands always rates the CR in addition to the players for every league match. I've never seen a CR get a rating higher than a 7.5. Even top CRs such as Kuipers and Makkelie frequently get 6 & 7s. When Makkelie did the PSV - AZ match where he changed to YCs to RC after VAR suggested a re-look, he got a rating of 5.5. I watched that game and didn't see him make any mistakes and IIRC there were no other VAR decisions. Go figure.

    I do player ratings for all Ajax matches and am very conservative. That being said I don't think I would give VAR implementation in the EPL a 7.
     
  15. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
  16. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was unaware that "sparingly" and "never" were synonyms.
     
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    In the same way as "clear and obvious" has no meaning.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the Southampton goal to make it 1-0... the ball appears to have been moving on the quick free kick that led directly to the goal. In other competitions with VAR, that's a possible objective error that has to be retaken if confirmed. In the EPL... I'm not even sure they thought to look at it.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    An off-the-ball push that seemingly had no consequence on the scoring of a goal just prompted VAR to rule out a Crystal Palace goal in the first half. That's something that never would have been given for a penalty.
     
  21. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This a day after Riley admitted to four erroneous reviews in the two weeks prior to the international break
     
  22. djmtxref

    djmtxref Member

    Apr 8, 2013
    They showed the push on the stadium video in association with the VAR decision. That’s new.
     
  23. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    This weekend's assignments, for completeness:

    West Ham - Tottenham
    Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

    Arsenal - Southampton
    Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Richard West, Neil Davies. Fourth official: Gavin Ward. VAR: Andy Madley. Assistant VAR: Eddie Smart.

    Bournemouth - Wolves
    Referee: Simon Hooper. Assistants: Simon Beck, Derek Eaton. Fourth official: Anthony Coggins. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Mark Scholes.

    Brighton - Leicester
    Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: James Linington. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

    Crystal Palace - Liverpool
    Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Matthew Wilkes, Adrian Holmes. Fourth official: Oliver Langford. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis.

    Everton - Norwich
    Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: David Webb. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Scott Ledger.

    Watford - Burnley
    Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Daniel Cook, Harry Lennard. Fourth official: Jarred Gillett. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Marc Perry.

    Man City - Chelsea
    Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Lee Betts, Constantine Hatzidakis. Fourth official: Jonathan Moss. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

    Sheffield - Man Utd
    Referee: Andre Marriner. Assistants: Simon Long, Sian Massey-Ellis. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

    Aston Villa - Newcastle
    Referee: Lee Mason. Assistants: Scott Ledger, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Tim Robinson. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Daniel Cook.
     
  24. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    "Top six" matches:

    Liverpool - Man City (Community Shield): Atkinson
    Man Utd - Chelsea: Taylor
    Man City - Tottenham: Oliver
    Liverpool - Arsenal: Taylor
    Arsenal - Tottenham: Atkinson
    Chelsea - Liverpool: Oliver
    Man Utd - Arsenal: Friend
    Man Utd - Liverpool: Atkinson
    Liverpool - Tottenham: Taylor
    Chelsea - Man Utd (Carabao Cup): Tierney
    Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Marriner
    Liverpool - Man City: Oliver
    Man City - Chelsea: Atkinson

    Distribution of these matches in the EPL so far:

    Atkinson: 3
    Taylor: 3
    Oliver: 3
    Friend: 1
     

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