A more interesting discussion took place on ESPN FC last night (you might be able to see this segment on the ESPN Soccer website: https://www.espn.com/soccer/?src=com but I don't know if this requires a subscription to ESPN+). In the studio were Steve Nicol and Craig Burley with Stewart Robson in London (all three well known defenders). All the discussion is in the first 10 minutes of the webcast. Nicol said that the reasoning behind it not being a penalty was the deflection off Bernardo Silva into Alexander Arnold's arm, which as we all saw was quite away from his side. Had it not hit Silva, it would have been a penalty. Burley agreed after some discussion and Steward Robson came up with an interesting perspective that I hadn't thought about. Since Alexander Arnold "directed" the ball to a Liverpool player and the resulting series of passes and poor clearance(s) ended up in a goal. He said maybe this goal should have been called back because of a hand ball in the build up.
Except for Gundy's poor clearance! City had touched it twice before the goal was made. An absolute cracker to my dismay...
Yeah. On top of that--and though it's not being widely disseminated yet--it seems IFAB literally just said (in response to DFB questions) that the handball standard during and/or starting an APP is not the same as accidental handball to start "create a goal-scoring opportunity." That adds another layer of confusion, but it's not unexpected. As to my other point about an OFR leading to a different result, take this clip from the U17 WC: https://streamable.com/1rhnz?fbclid=IwAR02cSrlxzj2G6h1t_qH_PyiYfgQiiHXJ1nYr13eJZ_CALA9jUXiEZC0yPA Penalty awarded. VAR determines there was an punishable handball offence in the build-up (whether you view it as a deliberate handball or an accidental handball that creates a goal-scoring opportunity isn't entirely irrelevant, but the answer to what the VAR thought is unknowable). Referee agrees, so the restart is a DFK for Australia. So again, if the VAR had determined that Liverpool's handball was a penalty, in any other competition with VAR, Oliver would have went to the monitor and, if he agreed, would then be compelled to call the accidental handball against City and the restart would have been a DFK for Liverpool in their own penalty area. Of course, if he didn't agree that it was a punishable penalty, the goal for Liverpool would have stood. It goes without saying that we are over-complicating things. Introducing video review with intricate protocols does not lend itself to a sport that never had natural prolonged stoppages.
The bigger issue, as a fan who is not a ref, is poor communication. The IFAB has done a horrible job communicating the rules around handball to the footballing community at large, and the individual leagues have done a horrible job developing communicating protocols to enable referees to communicate with fans in the stadium and/or watching on TV. If the Liverpool goal being discussed had been called back, all hell would have broken loose at Anfield, because it would have been impossible for the ref to communicate his decision and logic to the fans in the stadium.
I know what each of the words in this tweet mean individually but I haven't the faintest idea what he's trying to say
I don't know if you read @AremRed's words differently from me but if the question was whether or not the Liverpool goal would have been wiped from the books if VAR had awarded a penalty for handball on the other end of the pitch, the answer to that is unequivocally YES, and it's not even a question of VAR rules — it's a fundamental principle of Law 10: If City are awarded a penalty for handball, then Liverpool have committed an offence and thus cannot score a goal.
This proposal in today's Guardian is horribly misguided. Not having VAR in the second half of the EPL season is not the solution. Also a meeting on VAR is scheduled with the clubs: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/nov/11/premier-league-var-rule-out-changes-clubs
It just sort of struck me how much pressure is on UEFA to get things right with EURO 2020. You have several of the most popular leagues in the world, all using VAR a little differently (one a lot differently) with all having varying degrees of controversy (one a lot of controversy). We focus mostly on England--obviously so in this thread--but Italy is having more and more issues. Germany seems to have sorted itself out mostly, but the standard there for intervention is different than Italy or, say, France. I haven't watched enough Spanish soccer this year to know how VAR is going, but there are a lot of eyes on that league so that's another standard. All these fans of all these leagues are going to have their eyes focus on one tournament next summer. Yes, VAR is in UCL, but how many Liverpool fans pay attention to how VAR acts, for example, in the Dinamo Zagreb-Shakhtar Donetsk match? The controversies that are happening in UCL are going to be magnified exponentially when there are only 2-3 matches a day and most of the world and all of Europe is watching. As has been said ad nauseum, FIFA got lucky in 2018--a combination of limiting VAR to like 6 guys plus not really calling any red cards or non-handling PKs after the first round. There's no way UEFA will get that lucky again. When England gets eliminated via an OFR or an obvious penalty isn't given via VAR to Italy or there is a glaring discrepancy from one match to the next with red cards or handling penalties... yikes. It's a developing powder keg and the attention we're going to see all season in the EPL is only going to make it worse in the English press. I would not want to be Rosetti right now.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50380641 So, if EPL VAR implementation gets a 7 out of 10, what would a 4 look like?
One of the major papers in The Netherlands always rates the CR in addition to the players for every league match. I've never seen a CR get a rating higher than a 7.5. Even top CRs such as Kuipers and Makkelie frequently get 6 & 7s. When Makkelie did the PSV - AZ match where he changed to YCs to RC after VAR suggested a re-look, he got a rating of 5.5. I watched that game and didn't see him make any mistakes and IIRC there were no other VAR decisions. Go figure. I do player ratings for all Ajax matches and am very conservative. That being said I don't think I would give VAR implementation in the EPL a 7.
Maybe even 9.5 in four beers' time https://t.co/rO6bftDwGT— Sophie Lawson (@lawson_sv) November 11, 2019
So the Southampton goal to make it 1-0... the ball appears to have been moving on the quick free kick that led directly to the goal. In other competitions with VAR, that's a possible objective error that has to be retaken if confirmed. In the EPL... I'm not even sure they thought to look at it.
An off-the-ball push that seemingly had no consequence on the scoring of a goal just prompted VAR to rule out a Crystal Palace goal in the first half. That's something that never would have been given for a penalty.
This a day after Riley admitted to four erroneous reviews in the two weeks prior to the international break
This weekend's assignments, for completeness: West Ham - Tottenham Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday. Arsenal - Southampton Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Richard West, Neil Davies. Fourth official: Gavin Ward. VAR: Andy Madley. Assistant VAR: Eddie Smart. Bournemouth - Wolves Referee: Simon Hooper. Assistants: Simon Beck, Derek Eaton. Fourth official: Anthony Coggins. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Mark Scholes. Brighton - Leicester Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: James Linington. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child. Crystal Palace - Liverpool Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Matthew Wilkes, Adrian Holmes. Fourth official: Oliver Langford. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis. Everton - Norwich Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: David Webb. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Scott Ledger. Watford - Burnley Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Daniel Cook, Harry Lennard. Fourth official: Jarred Gillett. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Marc Perry. Man City - Chelsea Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Lee Betts, Constantine Hatzidakis. Fourth official: Jonathan Moss. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday. Sheffield - Man Utd Referee: Andre Marriner. Assistants: Simon Long, Sian Massey-Ellis. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child. Aston Villa - Newcastle Referee: Lee Mason. Assistants: Scott Ledger, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Tim Robinson. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Daniel Cook.
"Top six" matches: Liverpool - Man City (Community Shield): Atkinson Man Utd - Chelsea: Taylor Man City - Tottenham: Oliver Liverpool - Arsenal: Taylor Arsenal - Tottenham: Atkinson Chelsea - Liverpool: Oliver Man Utd - Arsenal: Friend Man Utd - Liverpool: Atkinson Liverpool - Tottenham: Taylor Chelsea - Man Utd (Carabao Cup): Tierney Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Marriner Liverpool - Man City: Oliver Man City - Chelsea: Atkinson Distribution of these matches in the EPL so far: Atkinson: 3 Taylor: 3 Oliver: 3 Friend: 1