Premier League 17-18 (R) assignments and discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by frankieboylampard, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What do you mean by documentation? It's a challenge with excessive force. It hits a plethora of considerations we have for SFP. It's a red card. Where's the documentation that says studs into the calves are a red card but if it's a little lower or with negligible force it might only be a yellow? Not everything is written down as case studies.
     
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  2. uws22

    uws22 Member

    Celtic
    Sep 8, 2012
    Wisconsin
    Club:
    Celtic FC
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  3. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    That's pretty good.

    I could've sworn a couple of years FIFA had a good, easily digested mini-site that walked everyone through the Laws and the most common interpretations thereof. I guess it went away when IFAB saved the global game by changing the direction of the kickoff.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The fact that Klopp seems to sincerely believe this wasn't a red and Guardiola is suggesting strongly it wasn't a red (meaning, if it was his player, he'd be arguing vehemently so) is pretty much demoralizing. Mane might be a nice guy who would never mean to deliberately injure an opponent. He still put his leg in a place it never should have been with no regard for whether or not he'd decapitate his opponent. I just don't understand the desire to excuse these sort of challenges.
     
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  5. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    Because there's still a strong feeling among many old school folks that intent is a big deal despite the Laws, and that whenever two people ram into each other, both legitimately going for the ball, that it should never result in a RC.
    Doesn't make it right, but I certainly understand the thinking.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand the words that come out of their mouths. But I don't understand their thinking at all. It's lazy and inconsistent.

    If "intent" was the only thing that mattered, the vast majority of red cards would never occur. Most two-footed lunges and tackles from behind and tackles over the ball and stamps on calves and even many elbows are likely not done with any intent to foul or hurt an opponent. They are done due to over-exuberance and the age-old "rush of blood." The SFP red card where someone is deliberately not going for the ball should technically be non-existent, and the VC red card during dynamic play where you can unequivocally say the offender intended to do violence to his opponent is not as common as perceived. But people like Guardiola and Klopp know certain acts result in red cards. It's only in situations like this, where a less common red card on an aerial challenge happens, where people start to talk like this and excuse the inexcusable. To me, it's totally counter intuitive: they have no problem when a tackle that maybe wasn't a deliberate a violent act gets a red (let's say a two-footed lunge or studs over the ball) but when a player jumps in the air with a straight leg that is more than five feet off the ground and into the chin of his opponent at force, suddenly it's "oh, he didn't mean to do that!"

    It's a joke. And particularly so in the era of supposedly taking head injuries seriously. These comments, and those public ones from referees who should absolutely know better, make referees jobs unnecessarily tough and, more importantly, do a disservice to the long-term safety of players.
     
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  7. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Seems like google likes me better then, I have little problem finding good info. But I do agree that the IFAB could use some help getting through on google, they really should be a top 5 option for all well known LotG terms.

    If I google "laws of the game" then the results I get are:
    1. the 14/15 LotG on the FIFA site
    2. the link you posted
    3. the IFAB's site with full LotG and FAQs
    4. latest LotG at the Dutch FA's site
    5. the LotG entry on wikipedia

    Granted the first 2 aren't great (FIFA really should purge their site of all LotG related stuff if they don't intend to keep it up to date anymore) but the other 3 gets you what you need tbh.

    If I google "serious foul play" then I get:
    1. a pdf on Fouls and Misconduct (part 1) from the FIFA site
    2. a youtube vid
    3. the fouls and misconduct section of the FA's site
    4. a table on the difference between SFP and VC from an aussie ref association, decent links for LotG info though
    5. a bigsoccer thread on "Serious foul play" (from 2005 but the advice from MassRef and Alberto is still solid :D )

    Didn't get the IFAB here unfortunately but otherwise there's good info.


    FIFA had decent info on LotG and IFAB but a few years back the IFAB started their own site and since then the FIFA info seems to have lost its touch. The IFAB site is great though.
     
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  8. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I don't really care too much for ex players and pundits not thinking that it is a red card. It is what it is with them.

    It's frankly insulting and absolutely irresponsible for an ex-referee, especially one who retired less than a year ago, to say that it is not a red card. It is a disservice to the profession and to the game to be saying that it is not a red card as a former professional referee.
     
  9. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I feel like you could hear Howard Webb slapping him from across the ocean when Clatts made that comment.
     
  10. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    Right. Ex-players often have this romanticized notion that they were tougher than everyone else and got "stuck in." Some former English players are the worst -- nothing is a yellow card to them, much less a red.

    A former ref? I don't get that at all.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yet many over the past few years have evolved and shown an ability to learn--particularly with two-footed lunges and similar tackles. Credit is deserved where it's due, and the first two minutes of this video are very good from the ESPNFC crew. Perhaps Clattenburg should listen to Stevie Nicol:

     
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  12. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Friday 15 September

    8pm AFC Bournemouth v Brighton & Hove Albion (Sky Sports)
    Referee: Craig Pawson
    Assistants: Richard West, Constantine Hatzidakis
    Fourth official: Chris Kavanagh

    Saturday 16 September
    12.30pm Crystal Palace v Southampton (Sky Sports)
    Referee: Robert Madley
    Assistants: Lee Betts, Marc Perry
    Fourth official: Graham Scott

    Huddersfield Town v Leicester City
    Referee: Jonathan Moss
    Assistants: Adrian Holmes, Scott Ledger
    Fourth official: Oliver Langford

    Liverpool v Burnley
    Referee: Roger East
    Assistants: Harry Lennard, Mick McDonough
    Fourth official: Mike Jones

    Newcastle United v Stoke City
    Referee: Stuart Attwell
    Assistants: Stephen Child, Matthew Wilkes
    Fourth official: Lee Mason

    Watford v Manchester City
    Referee: Anthony Taylor
    Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn
    Fourth official: Neil Swarbrick

    West Bromwich Albion v West Ham United
    Referee: Paul Tierney
    Assistants: Simon Long, Derek Eaton
    Fourth official: Andy Davies

    5.30pm Tottenham Hotspur v Swansea City (BT Sport)
    Referee: Mike Dean
    Assistants: Darren Cann, Ian Hussin
    Fourth official: Kevin Friend

    Sunday 17 September
    1.30pm Chelsea v Arsenal (Sky Sports)
    Referee: Michael Oliver
    Assistants: Simon Bennett, Stuart Burt
    Fourth official: Neil Swarbrick

    4pm Manchester United v Everton (Sky Sports)
    Referee: Andre Marriner
    Assistants: Simon Beck, Andy Halliday
    Fourth official: Jonathan Moss


    Mike Oliver getting the big one. Andre Marriner with a good match as well.
     
  13. GroveWanderer

    GroveWanderer Member

    Nov 18, 2016
    I have to say I cannot recall a case where a new set of instructions from the FA to referees came out during the season, saying to ease up on issuing red cards for SFP - and I would be amazed if they have ever done that.
     
  14. GroveWanderer

    GroveWanderer Member

    Nov 18, 2016
    I'm not quite sure why you're going to FIFA's website to look for information about the Laws of the Game any more. FIFA hasn't been responsible for disseminating information about the Laws since 2015 (and were never responsible for creating or amending them).

    Anyway, by going to the IFAB website I was able to find the following within less than a minute:

    I think that's an eminently clear and easy-to-find explanation of what SFP is and why Mané's challenge meets the definition.
     
  15. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It didn't make a bit of difference in the game, but there was a great example of what motivates players to dive/go down too easy in the Man City/Crystal Palace game today. Sane is about to go clear on goal just inside the area, and his wrist is held long enough for him to be slowed down and lose some balance. Neil Swarbrick seems to have a pretty good view (although maybe a bit too far away since the ball was played pretty long), and he lets the play go.

    It was definitely a foul (I thought so in live action, then the replay confirmed my opinion), and referees need to make this call. I understand the Premier League is a more physical league than most, but this is the kind of foul that needs to be called if we are expecting players to consider reducing their dives and embellishments.
     
  16. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Saturday 23 September

    12.30pm West Ham United v Tottenham Hotspur (Sky Sports)
    Referee: Michael Oliver
    Assistants: Simon Bennett, Stuart Burt
    Fourth official: Andre Marriner

    Burnley v Huddersfield Town
    Referee: Chris Kavanagh
    Assistants: Peter Kirkup, Sian Massey-Ellis
    Fourth official: Graham Scott

    Everton v AFC Bournemouth
    Referee: Martin Atkinson
    Assistants: Stephen Child, Adrian Holmes
    Fourth official: Jonathan Moss

    Manchester City v Crystal Palace
    Referee: Neil Swarbrick
    Assistants: Scott Ledger, Andy Garratt
    Fourth official: Tony Harrington

    Southampton v Manchester United
    Referee: Craig Pawson
    Assistants: Ian Hussin, Constantine Hatzidakis
    Fourth official: Mike Jones

    Stoke City v Chelsea
    Referee: Mike Dean
    Assistants: Simon Long, Daniel Cook
    Fourth official: Paul Tierney

    Swansea City v Watford
    Referee: Lee Mason
    Assistants: Harry Lennard, Matthew Wilkes
    Fourth official: James Linington

    5.30pm Leicester City v Liverpool (BT Sport)
    Referee: Anthony Taylor
    Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn
    Fourth official: Bobby Madley

    Sunday 24 September
    4pm Brighton & Hove Albion v Newcastle United (Sky Sports)
    Referee: Andre Marriner
    Assistants: Simon Beck, Richard West
    Fourth official: Craig Pawson

    Monday 25 September
    8pm Arsenal v West Bromwich Albion (Sky Sports)
    Referee: Bobby Madley
    Assistants: Lee Betts, Marc Perry
    Fourth official: Stuart Attwell
     
  17. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Nice to see some new names as CR and 4ths. Let's hope they are successful.

    PH
     
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  18. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
  19. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    In light of the Mane discussion, this one shocked me.

    The elbow, despite lack of intent, endangered the safety of Rooney.
    The recent addition of "challenge" to "tackle" in the definition of SFP seems to be aimed at this exact situation.
     
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  20. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Very odd decision IMO. Tool or weapon?
    I fully expect @Rufusabc to chime in here and add another referee to his sh*t list!:D

    PH
     
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  21. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004

    I don’t know how Atkinson missed it. But, it’s a penalty and red card. Atkinson gives very, very few straight reds in the last few years. In ‘15-‘16 he gave 1 in 46 matches. He’s already had one this year. Jon Moss is on my current list!
     
  22. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    I might not like the flailing elbows style of jumping but the only reason anyone comments on this is because of the blood tbh, without it this is a regular occurance.
     
  23. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    And regularly disciplined with a yellow or red card.
     
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  24. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    But the blood is an indication of the force used and the location of the contact. But you are wrong anyway.
    People often comment on thrown elbows and their consequences, blood or not.

    PH
     
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  25. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Thoughts on this play? Can we go back and give a penalty after the first shot? After the second? Or is that too much?

    https://streamable.com/ear1c
     

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