Not sure how long these will stay up, but in case you missed the craziness today. Ashley Young handling shout https://streamable.com/mfaxc Ashley Young challenge in penalty area https://www.clippituser.tv/c/zbzbrb He comes in with his studs exposed, but not at unreasonable height. But his straight leg/studs exposed foot goes off the top of the ball and into the upper shin.
That tackle was pure EPL. It’s a card and it’s most likely red in every league not in England. In England, it’s play on most of the time.
https://flixtc.com/w/D3VJAEJ Kinda stupid from all parties. I’m guessing a push to the head was what the second red was for. Why you would do that after the officials will be paying close attention to you is beyond me.
There was a video on here a few months ago from Referee Esse Baharmast I believe. Where they were discussing defender handling in the "box" he kept showing examples of defenders sliding or diving for the ball and the ball hitting them in the arm. In the class many officials were mixed in their opinions whether it was "intentional" or not, but his reasoning (which personally I agree with) was that when the defender makes the choice to go to the ground they are giving up their right to have their arm in a "natural" position and any contact with the arm on a diving player should be considered handling. City could've used those PK's. BOTH of them. Didn't help that Sterling just bottled two great chances and Gundogan missed an easy header in the first. Match should've been 5-0 at the half. Oh well, bad week to be a City fan...
Personally, I think that's a terrible way to interpret handling. Soccer doesn't involve athletes standing perfectly upright and straight 24/7. It requires jumping, sliding, and contorting your body all manner of ways to play and as such it's absurd to expect someone to keep your arms perfectly by your side at all times. Natural position is all relative to what you are doing at the time and should be considered as such in terms of handling or not. Opinions like these seem to come from people that have either never played or haven't played in decades. Ashley Young was lunging at the ball with his head desperately trying to head the ball and the ball then inadvertently barely touched his hand. If you consider that deliberate handling and call a PK you need to hang up your whistle. That is not within the spirit of the game whatsoever. I hate black and white instruction like this. Yes there are times when the sliding defender has made themselves bigger and it is easy to consider deliberate handling. But to say that it should be called 100% of the time just because the player isn't standing upright is poor instruction.
Is it? I get the common sense logic argument. But we've had this debate before about whether or not handling a cross can or should be DOGSO. The ball isn't technically moving toward goal. We see attackers sky the ball or whiff on such crosses all the time. I think "football expects" a yellow card here. And to be clear, I 100% think this was handling. And 100% think that Young committed an SFP penalty. On the first one, I understand why Atkinson missed it because you only get one look (AR maybe could have helped?). On the second one, this is England and "but he got the ball" goes a long way, particularly in the penalty area of a derby match. I don't like it, but it is what it is at the moment.
I'll split the difference here. If seen correctly in midfield, I think this always gets called as a foul now. I think some referees would even go red. Things are changing--slowly--in that regard. But I think it's an entirely different animal in the penalty area, though. The "he got the ball" philosophy seems to trump most other considerations still when dealing with penalty decisions.
A bit harsh, don't you think? I could make an argument that while Young definitely slips, he knows exactly where his hand is by the time the ball arrives and is making zero effort to avoid the hand-to-ball contact that just so happens to perfectly deflect a cross away from an on-rushing attacker. I think it's impossible to get into Young's mind and determine whether or not this was a pure accident or whether or not this is the absolute epitome of a cynical handball that is done precisely to compensate for the accident of falling. Since we can't do that, we have to have some standards that help us make the call. I agree with others. Instruction that we currently have leads to this being a penalty.
This was a very interesting incident and a good case study in how referees figure out what justice is. I think Marriner was initially pretty gutsy to send off Stephens but only caution Wilshere. Gutsy, but probably incorrect. He's cautioning Wilshere for the foul and sending off Stephens for the reaction. In that regard, he's right. But Wilshere, after being struck in the head, physically confronts Stephens and appears to lift a knee into him. You would have had a few complaints from partisan Arsenal fans if Wilshere walked too, but on the whole, given the totality of events, I think everyone would have been fine with both of them being sent off. Marriner likely felt that soon after his decision. And then Elneny gave him the perfect out by provoking a confrontation and raising his hands. By the letter of the law, Marriner can justify a VC red card there. But if he had just made the match 10 v 10 (by sending off Wilshere) would he have sent off Elneny? Almost certainly not. It was raised hands, but there was no real violence and I think it's the sort of thing he could have handled with a yellow or a talking-to. But the desire to find justice, coupled with the fact that Elneny gave him the option, leads to that red card.
Is there a point at which the shirt pulling could be deemed "excessive force" and thus SFP/VC? This wasn't just a shirt pull. He tore the shirt badly.
He could have gone down the Cakir route and given him a yellow for the shirt pull (SPA) and a yellow for the push in the confrontation. 10 on 10 and justice is served.
It's calls or non-calls like this one that make it very difficult for us in lower levels to call fouls when someone gets the ball. It also perpetuates the myth that getting the ball overrules everything else. I know that we have the benefit of replays and angles, but my initial thought at live speed was AT LEAST a penalty kick and a caution. Getting the ball was the only thing keeping me from thinking straight red. Watching the replays made me think it should have been SFP even though he got the ball.
Suspension for Elneny was overturned, in my biased opinion deservedly so. I will say on the matter, I would have been happy (as a referee) with a red card for both players involved in the confrontation, in a manner similar to @code1390 's point or just going straight red on him. I don't think that there was any real basis for a red card to Elneny. It very much seemed to me that he realized he missed the chance to give Wilshere a deserved red card, so in an attempt to "even the score", he sent off Elneny, as @MassachusettsRef suggested. I would add this to the list of reasons why I don't think Mariner is a top PL official. https://www.fotmob.com/news/1wigxg0riaqpy1n2xvbvanniwh
Where I struggle is the push with his hands to the face. From what I understood from guidance received by USSF, hands to the face especially when the ball is not in play is grounds for a sending off. There was a lot else going on at the same time that lead up to it and I would agree with maybe a hopeful evening of the “score” so to say, however, I still think you can easily justify a sending off with the current instructions regarding the head. This video has a great angle regarding the actual face contact: https://streamable.com/an8lh
Matchday 34 Saturday 14 April Southampton - Chelsea: Mike Dean Burnley - Leicester: Martin Atkinson Crystal Palace - Brighton: Andre Marriner Huddersfield Town - Watford: Craig Pawson Swansea - Everton: Lee Mason Liverpool - Bournemouth: Chris Kavanagh Tottenham - Man City: Jon Moss Sunday 15 April Newcastle - Arsenal: Anthony Taylor Man Utd - West Brom: Paul Tierney Monday 16 April West Ham - Stoke: Michael Oliver Jon Moss with the big one as Man City looks to stop the rot while Spurs try to consolidate their top-four place. Atkinson and Marriner still in action despite controversies from last weekend.
FA Cup Semis Saturday 21 April Man Utd - Tottenham: Anthony Taylor (VAR: Andre Marriner) Sunday 22 April Chelsea - Southampton: Martin Atkinson (VAR: Mike Jones) If Man Utd doesn't win, I suspect it's Oliver's final.
Sigh. I suppose this game has less on the line than previously expected. City can't win the league and Spurs are 10 points clear of Chelsea. Cool.
While I'd agree that "football", or most fans at least, would expect a yellow I must say that I find that a bit interesting tbh. If Young had stopped Sterling getting the ball by pushing/pulling him to the ground then very few would have complained regardless of the direction of the ball or possibility the attacker making a mess of it. Why would handling (if you deem this to be handling of course) be treated differently?
Caution given Would you go red? I’d seriously consider it. No real attempt to play the ball. https://streamable.com/ahhyx