It's a very vague assertion, if defense don't pay attention to my 15 yr old daughter in front of the goal, they get punished too. Maybe we should put her in instead? It's a selective argument. 7 goals in 14 games? How about 0 goals in the last 3 games? If you want to use goals scored, why did you pick the time interval to make her look the best? How about looking at goals scored since beginning of 2010 or something, wouldn't that be more accurate? Since Jan 2010, Wambach: 17 goals Arod: 11 Cheney: 9 Loyd:8 Morgan:7 Rapinoe: 6 HAO:4 Another selective argument you made is that she plays mid so she scores less than the fwd. Heck why don't you give allowance for outside mid vs attacking mid then? Another thing you also failed to mention is playing time, I guarantee you Lloyd had had more playing time than just about everybody. Pick another mid who scored more? It is pretty darn hard for players such as Di Martino to show her stuffs if she is not on the field now, isn't it? Your argument is flaw.
I've noticed that the soccer players seem to be getting a touch smaller over all. Keepers are an exception, sorta. Most of the taller girls (and I'm not even talking about the +6 footers) are heading into basketball in larger proportional numbers than they use to. More college scholarships available and more professional opportunities in basketball. Or at least that's what I've observed around me. Your area may be different.
None of the responses to my question about how the anti-Lloyd crowd would replace her really strike me as realistic or doing anything to improve the WNT’s chances in WWC. And that doesn’t surprise me because I think it’s crazy to bench your leading scorer, especially when you don’t have a reasonable replacement. Here are some thoughts on some of the suggestions. 1) Rapinoe or Heath. Either would be a mistake. If you think Lloyd is bad on defense and fouls a lot, Rapinoe would be worse in the center of the field. I think she led the WPS in fouls last season. Also, you would be robbing Peter to save Paul by taking her off the wing. You would then be thrusting Heath into a starter’s role at wing and she doesn’t exactly look ready for that. While she hasn’t played much in WNT games, Heath has played in WPS and not looked great. 3) Switching to two center mids. Not sure who the “tons” of choices are that fire123 is thinking the team could use to join Boxx in this alignment but I only know of a few — Lori Lindsey, Averbuch and Farrelly— and none of them really excite me. Lindsey’s too slow, Averbuch wouldn’t offer enough offense and Farrelly (who could be a longterm answer) might be a year away from such responsibility. Also, I prefer the diamond because it gives the midfielders less to think about with its more predictable shape and defined responsibilities. And I agree with Luvdagame’s assertion that you are just replacing a perceived problem (Lloyd’s weaknesses) with possibly a bigger one (little offense generated from the center midfield). Four years from now I hope we are talking about someone like Farrelly at attacking mid and Becky Edwards at d-mid. 4) Putting Boxx at attacking mid and wait for Heath to come back healthy. I think Heath is healthy but regardless, there is no time to waste with WWC being this summer. And Boxx in an attacking role? I’ll pass. 5) Brittany Bock. She has not been in the WNT picture for more than a year due to injury and ineffectiveness. 6) Christina DiMartino. Absolutely one of my favorite players who I think should be going to Germany. But because of her size, she might be better suited as a winger, which is where she plays in WPS and is why she would be my replacement for Tarpley. I keep hearing that Lloyd gets all the minutes so we don’t know how all these other possible replacements would fair in her place. Well, there is WPS and extensive practices/camps to evaluate these players and Pia and the rest of the coaching staff have clearly done that. I also don’t buy the argument that Lloyd is Pia’s pet so that’s why she plays. She plays because Pia thinks she gives the team the best chance at winning. Also, fire123, your argument about Lloyd’s recent goal scoring (seven in 16 games) being a selective time frame is stretching things a bit. You used January 2010 to present, probably knowing that she was injured for six months in 2010. So factoring that in, it makes her place on your goal scoring list all the more impressive. The reason why I selected the 7 goals in the last 16 games is that it is the latest data and therefore most important. You want to go into WWC with your hottest players so sitting her on the bench in favor of one of the above options would just not help the team right now IMO. But considering you apparently think any MF from the WNT player pool would be better than Lloyd, I doubt you are going to budge on this topic.
ask her. also include the question why she has not stood out in wps play. all the stuff you listed means nothing if she can't perform on the field now. great prospects don't always come thru as pros. let's hope she's not one of those.
What's Llyod's role within the team now? Originally it was not having the team be dependant on her being a goal scorer. The only reason people end up focusing on her goal scoring prowess now, is due to her less than stellar play at everything else she's supposed to do. Considering what her midfield role was not so long ago, Llyod's minimal effect on contributing assists should say more about her game than the typically unassisted individualistic style goals she managed to deliver. I always thought Llyod was supposed to help dictate play, and if possible get attempts on goal. Obviously by not being able to do that correctly, Sundhage has now opted to force Llyod away from the deeper mid positions. So again, what's her new role defined as of now? From what I can see, Llyod's new role seems to be a floating third forward. Who else in the whole U.S. female soccer pool comes near to playing that role? Even if you think of a player that fits the bill, does she, or would she, actually play it good enough for us BS critics to be able to compare and judge her against Llyod within her new role? I doubt it. Llyod's seemingly new more intuitive role has elevated her to a positional status and freedom no other U.S. mid has, or will have, the luxury to compete for. Marta with Brazil, and Smith for England, are the only two other female players in the world who play roles similar to what Llyod currently occupies within the WNT. The difference is that they have solid foundations behind them, so they never need worry about the dirty elements of the game. Llyod is basically competing with her self within the WNT, to do a job a small international elite niche have managed to produce any success with. Is Llyod that good, no I don't think so. But how many players ever fit that elite creative talent criteria globally, let alone within the U.S. talent pool. If she's a valued goal scorer, play a system which supports it. Even in her new advanced role, flaws will always appear far more obvious for people to criticise, as long as she has to deal with CM positional responsibility.
I don't think being the attacking mid in a diamond formation is some kind of rare position that only a few players can and have played and that the diamond formation itself is not often used. I have seen many college, club and national teams play that formation with great success. Lloyd plays that role for her club teams. Lindsey played that role last year for the Independence and Farrelly is essentially playing that role for the team this year. Rapinoe and Heath have played that role as well for their college and/or club teams. And all of them are on the WNT so I think it's accurate to say Lloyd is competing against herself. She's just the best player for the role in the coaching staff's opinion. I don't think the role of an attacking mid is quite a floating third forward because Lloyd and others who have played the role do track back more than a forward would. But you are clearly right that it does come with less defensive responsibility than if you have two interchangeable center mids. You also make it sound like the coaching staff created some peculiar formation just to suit Lloyd. I just think this formation suits Boxx as much as it does Lloyd. Boxx will have her responsibilities lessened as well. And I think the team was not generating enough offense with two center mids so they decided to move Lloyd up. We'll see if it works.
I disagree, I'd say all those players can do better than Lloyd when you consider what they can do on both sides of the ball and the help they provide their teammates, again, on both sides of the ball. If you want to use the lastest data, it is 0 goals in 3 games. I forgot how long and when Lloyd was out, you can go back as far as you want and show me the number. When you talk about statistics, you need a reasonable sample, if you only use the numbers to fit your need, then the argument is weak. If it's more important to you to go with your "hottest players" ... then Wambach should be benched since she hasn't scored? Or does your rule only apply when you want it to apply?
This is an odd argument for you to make, given that 0 for 3 is about the ONLY span of her career like this-- otherwise its 3 for 6, 4 for 8, 5 for 10, etc. Your argument works better against you than it does for you...
I guess we'll agree to disagree on anyone with a pulse being able to do a better job than Lloyd. But you are really reaching on the use of stats. On one hand, you accuse me and others of using selective data that doesn't provide a reasonable sample and then you throw out 0 goals in the last three. You are right that you need a reasonable sample but basing it on what happened 18 months ago is not as valuable as what has happened in the past six months because the latter is a better reflection of how Lloyd and her WNT teammates are playing headed into WWC. Someone might have been playing well 18 months ago but not right now. And I think 16 games is a reasonable sample. That's almost an entire WPS season. And in terms of hottest players, Abby did score in the first Japan game so that sends your argument down the drain. Actually, when you look at the last three WNT games, ARod scored a few. O'Reilly and Rapinoe scored as well and Lloyd set up one of O'Reilly's goals and set up Abby and Morgan on what should have been two more in the second Japan game. So all five of our starters playing offensive positions have a little momentum moving forward. Again, after watching the last few games, I'm way more worried about the outside backs getting beat by speed than I am about our starters up front.
I guess I have to spell it out again. You and the other person used a selective stat and acted as if that was the end all and be all answer to the Loyd's question. I just wanted to show you that it was not. You have to have better argument than that. Here is another selective argument. Could have and should have. Why did you not mention all the other turnovers that could have and should have resulted in goals for the other teams?
And yet you had to cherry pick a time period to make the argument... Whereas if you take ANY other you make Philafan's
The only person using a selective stat in this discussion is you with your 0 goals in three games. Myself and Luvdagame mentioned seven goals in the last 16 games (which again is almost an entire WPS season)-- played since Lloyd returned from her injury last fall up until the recent Japan games. What would be a better sampling to determine how one is playing leading into the WWC? Should we look at games from two years ago? If so, Meghan Schnur is your starting LB. I didn't mention turnovers in the Japan game for two reasons 1) I thought we were discussing offensive production since you do not seem to think Lloyd is a good offensive player. 2) I did not think she committed any horrific turnovers in those games that could or should have resulted in goals while Lloyd actually had a great pass to send Morgan in on an open goal and the kid flubbed it. Hardly comparable. The other reason I mentioned that was because even though she didn't score goals, that shows she was clearly involved in the offense. She had a great back heel pass in the first Japan game that set up a scoring chance for a teammate. Not her fault those plays weren't finished.
You accused me of using selective stat and evidences in a thread where all you posted were selective stats, and evidences that favored her. Where did I say Lloyd is not a good attacking player?
It's the ability to do it well that's rare. Like the men's game, only a few players can pull it off correctly. Marta and Smith are perfect examples within the women's international game of how it's done right. For me Llyod is a Lampard type player. These players need cover behind them to operate properly. When they do get the correct team set up to play in, there task is then to produce goals, and not assists. There's a huge difference between how it can be produced in the international levels, and then domestic football. What worked for potential star creative players while sitting in a free floating role within the U.S., tends to only work within domestic U.S. soccer circles only. When trying to produce the same things at a higher level, these players can tend to look limited within a more sophisticated international arena. You tend to need something a little special to play where Llyod now operates, and the U.S. has not produced that player for some time now. So if Llyod is the best option U.S. have, playing her so staggered in a rigid 4 player midfield is odd. The skill set she has means she will naturally operate as a more trigger happy floating forward, not in the style of a regular AM. Her athletic attributes may allow her to get around the field, but that's to make up for poor positional understanding. This means she will always have critics as long as she's jugged to be a CM/AM, and then evaluated on what a CM/AM is supposed to do. The only reason Llyod tracks back is because Sundhage's formation and tactics lack cover. The wingers start very high up the field, with two forwards that don't come back to receive the ball very often either. Add to the that the difficult time the WNT have had with ball retention, and you see why Llyod has to get back and help. Playing Llyod more advanced now give the WNT a 5 player attack! The role Llyod now has within the WNT is made for her, and her alone. This is a peculiar decision for me, as this suggests she's now more important in Sundhage's mind than Wambach, or Boxx. Sundhage has augmented the side to fit what Llyod can bring at the expense of Wambach needing service, and Boxx having a reliable partner. Don't think Wambach and Boxx will get it as easy as the Japan team that showed up recently for WWC games. These were two very distorting games. The coach is willing to leave danger zones unprotected in the midfield, just so Llyod can get closer to the goal. I personally don't understand why her goal ratio is supposed to support positive assessment of her quality over others. It's only forwards that usually get assessed so simply, with often minimal care about anything more they should offer the team beyond goals. Is that all Llyod is supposed to offer now?
You keep avoiding the issue. How is the last 16 games not only a representative number (unlike your three games) but also the most pertinent being that it is the most recent heading into WWC? The point of this whole thing is if Lloyd should not be starting in WWC, then who would replace her? So when you implied that anyone on the WNT would do better, we suggested it might be foolish to remove your leading goal scorer from the last 16 games. And you have attempted to cast that as not being relevant and just "selective" data. If you have data that shows how she's performed in other facets of the game by all means share but please don't tell us that the fact she has led the team in goals since returning from injury nine months ago has no value because it does. It doesn't tell you that she's a great defender or doesn't foul people. No one is arguing that-- maybe just the degree of inadequacy in those areas. But it does show you she has value as a goal scorer at this point in time. When Luvdagame said Lloyd was a vivid attacking threat, you said "you must be dreaming." In your attempts to denigrate Lloyd, your arguments become more contorted that you contradict what you have said up thread. I am bracing myself for you explaining the difference between "vivid attacking threat" and "good attacking player." That would be splitting hairs IMO.
Thanks for your insights. Kelly Smith IMO is the best attacking MF in the women's game but I always saw Marta as a forward. Regardless, Lloyd is not in their league as a player but then again, not many are. I guess I would say I don't think there is as much of a difference in the level of play between WPS and WWC as others do. So we would differ on whether something that has been used effectively in WPS could be used effectively in WWC. Paul Riley, who some would like to see become the WNT coach, runs a similar formation with the Independence with Buczkowski playing d-mid and either Lindsey or Farrelly at the top with DiMartino in the O'Reilly role at RW. And they are able to compete with teams that have more talent. There might be different positioning nuances but same concept. Lloyd will always have critics because of her flaws but so many other players on the WNT have flaws just as bad or even worse and they don't get the heat she does from certain posters. There is a group from Chicago area for instance that despise her because she played for Red Stars in the post Olympic year and was not fit and had a terrible year. Again, I think the formation change has as much to do with Boxx as it does Lloyd. She no longer has the wheels she had three or four years ago so I think this fits these two players. But again, Lindsey, Farrelly, Heath and Rapinoe have all played at the top of a diamond at some point in their careers so I don't think the formation change was made just for Lloyd. But it certainly emphasizes her strengths and minimizes her weaknesses. And I also think she's a better distributor that given credit for, so I am not sure service for the forwards will be a problem. The goal scoring numbers show she is an offensive threat -- probably the most potent one the team has from the midfield. It was not introduced to show that she is a spectacular all around player. No one is arguing that. IMO it mitigates some of her flaws and gives her a distinct way of helping the team that other MF lack. It certainly deserves consideration when putting together the WWC roster and starting lineups.
I said before and again, and you keep missing it: 1) Her pluses (occasion shot at goal) is not enough to offset her minuses (turnovers,failure to defend). 2) I never said to replace her at this point, show me a post. I said it before and I will say it again, she was/ is not the best candidate for the job. Pia has made a choice to go down this path and we have to stick with her but she will hurt us more than she will help. You just wait and see. See if you can understand that argument .
Well, when you state that any MF on the WNT would be better than Lloyd, it leaves one to conclude that you want to replace her. The new tact of yours about how we're stuck with her and can't change now has made it's first appearance in this thread. Take this exchange for example. I said, "I think it’s crazy to bench your leading scorer, especially when you don’t have a reasonable replacement." To which you responded, "I disagree, I'd say all those players can do better than Lloyd when you consider what they can do on both sides of the ball and the help they provide their teammates, again, on both sides of the ball." As for your discussion with Luvdagame, the point Luvdagame was making was not just switching back to two center mids but also by removing Lloyd from the lineup (which regardless of what you say now you have been championing throughout the course of this thread) you lose a "vivid threat of an amid with a potent two footed strikability which takes up much of the defense's attention and time." And you replied "You must be dreaming, when did you see that?" How else is one to read that but you implying that Lloyd is not a good attacking threat? You could be right that Lloyd will be a flop in WWC. And when she commits her first turnover or foul, I am sure you will be waiting to pounce. And if she scores a goal or makes a nice play, I'm sure you will rationalize that she lucked into it.