Post-Match USMNT vs. Uruguay 9/10

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by largegarlic, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    My rant response would be: the fed does identify prospects, for youth teams, for developmental teams, etc. The 1989-1995 generation that vanished into the ether needed to be identified circa 1997-2005. Whether you believe it's because the players weren't there (total b.s., we are not a tiny nation prone to golden generations, we are a huge nation slowly developing the sport, and the exact moment when this gap happened is when we should've seen the most improvement ever), or because the fed was incompetent at identifying them (my hand immediately would shoot up here) and developing them (my hand would shoot up again), the problem was every bit as much about the fed as it was about clubs, since we didn't even have clubs w/developmental teams set up, that was still a LONG ways away in any meaningful context. The Fed also deserves blame not only for identifying guys, but for totally botching the aspects of player development they had a hand in w/the youth development teams from 2007-2013ish as well. That is a black hole in terms of Youth National Team performance that pales even in comparison to the late 1980's when soccer in this country was essentially the Chicxulub crater.

    So yeah. I do blame the fed. If the fed and coaches deserve praise for 1994 and 2002, and to a lesser extent for 2009-2010, and they do, then they also have to eat an s sandwich for totally botching the 1989-1995 generation of prospects. You get the goodies when you win, and the pitchfork when you lose. It's how it works.

    FTR, I'm sure I'm missing things here, and maybe a lot, but I do think the fed deserves a ton of blame. At this point, mistakes being made belong with the FED and MLS, but back then (1997-2005ish), the fed had its hands far more dirty w/regards to youth player development, than the clubs did.
     
  2. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Not sure what to make of this game. We were missing four of our five best midfielders at least. Uruguay didn't come close to pressuring. They kind of started doing it, we played over the top, and they backed off ("Oh, the gringos are not running a training exercise so lets do our usual). They still killed us on the counter which really brings up the only takeaways for me:

    Aaron Long: This guy was great for NYRB last year. But he has not been even good this year. He has lost physical battles and been beaten on the dribble routinely. Neverless, he seems to get just about every minute for GB with the NT. But what does he do that helps the team? He doesn't pass like Ream or Brooks or even Miazga. He mostly passes it to his partner. He has been eaten alive 1 v 1 by ok international forwards. Against Venezuela, Uruguay, Jimenez, and others. He can be in the pool, but someone else should be getting time.

    Roldan: Maybe he is on here because 5 guys are missing, but he is not good enough. It is a broken record with some guys for GB who keep getting called and played and never show any ability to compete. Roldan not only loses every physical battle but he misses easy passes often. Simple 10 yard passes to teammates are usually poorly weighted, behind, or just miss. On the Uruguay goal, it was like he wasn't there. The Uruguayan shrugged him off with the simplist of ease.

    Whatever else GB is doing, it is beyond time that the following players stop getting minutes:

    Trapp
    Zardes
    Lovitz
    Roldan
    Baird

    Boyd: GB keeps starting him. He looks like Morris in March where he is thinking about things and not just going at it like his first caps. The RW spot seems to be a spot that needs to think and react to the 8/10 on that side and the RB. The LW spot seems to be more free to just move into whatever space the 8/10 on that side leaves (maybe in this window, with Pulisic there, it is the 8/10 that has to react to the LW). Players have, in general, looked better on the LW than on the RW; even players like Morris, that have played both.
     
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  3. gnk

    gnk Member

    Nov 1, 2000
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe you misunderstood me. I’m all for letting the younger guys play now. The guys on their prime age wise (wood, Altidore, maybe DY) will not get much better anymore and truthfully we aren’t likely to make much noise in Qatar. But with playing at home in 2026 and with the amount of players who are 18-23 and are getting PT (Puli, Wes, Adams, Sargent, Steffen, plus MLS talents like Cannon and Pomykal to name a few), I’d say let the kids play and learn. It may be ugly for a while but i am hoping in the long run it will bear fruit since there is upside there. No upside playing the Altidore’s and Wood’s. And if Berhalter is insistent on this total possession style at least the guys I saw in the U20 WC plus Adams, Wes, CP and Sarg are much better suited to playing that way than the guys in their so called prime.
     
  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    People commonly cite "Das Reboot" as it's called (when Germany around 2000 reinvested in youth to get their national team back up to speed) as something the US should look at.

    It's a template for us, but it's worth noting that a) the DFB was spending about 10x per capita during that time period than the US is now and b) They had a fully formed and robust professional system that 100% bought into player development because the rising tide of player prices was already starting to concern the league.

    People complain that the USSF focuses on dollars, but money buys coaches and coaching programs and subsidizes development programs.

    Overall talent level has to do with a combination of money and culture. A country like Uruguay is great because culturally, soccer is everything and so it's played constantly, everywhere. A country like Iceland boxed above it's weight because it spent an absurd amount of money per person to basically install it as the country's phys ed requirement and hired professional coaches to coach everyone, including very young kids.

    Neither of these things are easily attainable in the US. And the primacy of other sports will always cripple the US' upside.
     
  5. gnk

    gnk Member

    Nov 1, 2000
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree fully. And one of the ‘old guard’ you mentioned is my closest friend and we’ve discussed this many times.
     
  6. gnk

    gnk Member

    Nov 1, 2000
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can’t understand not giving him minutes if not the start last night. We know what Guzan gives us. Let’s see what Gonzalez gives us.
     
  7. UncagedGorilla

    Sep 22, 2009
    Tulsa
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Fair points like always. I will counter this one part of your argument though. I don't have any problem with the USSF making money. They need money to do most of the things we're talking about. My problem is them making money when it effectively puts our team at a disadvantage. And bringing in Goldman Sachs people to run a non-profit for soccer is a mistake.

    Having a real Technical Director who can implement a coaching curriculum down to the lowest levels and implement it at all levels of YNT's is the way to go. That's what Germany did and it isn't exactly rocket science. But, this is an important point, Germany actually hired a very pragmatic coach after their Euro 2000 disaster who most definitely did not play the style Germany was building towards. Voller took them to the finals of the 02 World Cup playing very pragmatic soccer. Gregg should learn from this.

    Also of note, Germany made it a point to begin bringing in more Turks to their national team which was a big deal at the time (Ozul and Khedira came from this). I wonder if there are any other countries who could do more to include a soccer-loving ethnic minority...
     
  8. WheezingUSASupport

    Dortmund
    United States
    Aug 28, 2017
    I’m still not feeling comfortable with the US going into WC qualifiers with Berhalter.

    The only positive is that when they start the qualifiers in a year or so all of these young guys that we see as our top guys will be that much better including Adams (I hope).
     
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  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #109 juvechelsea, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    upon further consideration i have determined USMNT is a:

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Basic Bitch

    the ideas we have returned to were somewhat creative when Klinsi brought them over; they are now basic. we think we are trendy for basically following the herd but right now innovative would be anything else. as we are neither true fashionistas nor internally thoughtful, we don't even maximize the virtues of the trend or quite grasp how it works. we don't even notice if the trend isn't suited to us and makes our butt look big.

    the eurosnobs love it in spite of themselves because they love following trends they don't fully understand, because that's how others do it that they watch on tv. furthermore, as missionaries of pretty dutch/spanish soccer they have timeless principles even if the tactical bandwagon has grown heavy and lost competitive value. if everyone else plays 442 hiring a 442 coach just stalemates, and makes the personnel choice ever more decisive. it doesn't matter if 5 years ago when you meant to hire the coach 442 was innovative. if by now it is ubiquitous and passe you have actually bought into the end of the tulip boom when the market corrects at your expense.

    the irony is that the eurosnobs should be leading the pitchfork brigade, even ahead of me, because we don't look like what they want. not even close. but they are so sold on the trend the trend overwhelms their practical cognitive dissonance.

    [i know we play a 433. my point is playing a 433 when others weren't was creative. playing it when everyone else does is following and negates most of the tactical value.]
     
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  10. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    #110 KALM, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    I think people tend to look at those teams -- especially the 2002 one -- through rose-colored glasses and only remember a couple of big games where some of those guys played out of their minds, forgetting the rest of their professional and international careers.

    A lot of our starters in that tournament struggled to get regular playing time in Europe outside of reserves or second divisions at the club level (e.g., Berhalter, Lewis, Hejduk, Wolff), never generated much serious interest from clubs outside of second divisions or midtable mid-league sides (e.g., Mastroeni, Agoos, and Stewart) and looked middling/inconsistent, on average, at the international level prior to that tournament (e.g., Sanneh and McBride).

    And a lot of those guys were older than you might remember. Agoos started all of our group stage games even though he was two years older than Michael Bradley is now. McBride, who started all of our games, was a year older than Jozy Altidore is now. And some of our "younger" forwards in that tournament, like Mathis and Wolff, were a good six years older than our younger forwards currently starting games in the top leagues, like Sargent and Weah.
     
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  11. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For sure. Pisses me off to no end!!!

    Spot on.


    As an inner city coach here in Texas, I have advocated for years that those in charge need to cast a wider net. To get more boys playing the sport. Specifically the rural whites and urban blacks of Region III. Latinos and other immigrant communities are already all in on the beautiful game, so they are playing from the time they can walk, we just need to scout better in the hood and out in the sticks. Add this to more boys from the segments I mentioned above and by numbers alone we up our talent pool.
     
  12. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    don't let your hate deprive you of a sense of humor, wriggly one.
     
  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    the 2002 team did what it did, and regardless of your esteem for the components, was competitive at a world class level. we did not go into games all but conceding. they wouldn't have allowed that attitude. and they didn't play a scheme on purpose that costs on risk-reward. they played with high intensity to win every game and had a practical purpose. and the machine was running so well we could almost play germany to a draw, and even beat them in friendlies.

    i think we have improved as a team on skill since then, but so has the rest of the world eg curacao. we are not uniquely gifted at skill and might be midpack in the region trying to make something of that as our core virtue.

    you could make something of the improved skill but it needs to link up with proper selection, as well as scheme and effort designed to maximize what we have as opposed to earn attaboys from snobs about how good we look.

    and since this got brought up last night, let's not even pretend this is development over results because we are nowhere near tapped into the choices some foreign coach would make if he decided to build for 5 years from now as opposed to run out what someone thinks is the best team for today.

    i actually think a coach with half a brain would see those two seemingly different concepts align fairly closely, particularly if one had the wisdom to see the chemistry benefits of building around a version of the team with a longer shelf life. even if bradley jozy zardes offered something, you're slapping together something to play for time on when to swap over to the next bunch, who has more promise. that transition would be disruptive. the trade off doesn't net positive because they don't play that well.

    the way he has it set up now, playing sargent or pomykal is what is disruptive to his plans and that's nuts.
     
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  14. pirozhok

    pirozhok Member+

    United States
    Jul 20, 2007
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Same shitty team led by shitty coach, URU did not care at all about that game, so 1:1, MEX did - 0:3. Can't really say any US player looked good, Morris, Roldan behaved like they cared, Sargent too, that's all.
     
  15. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Say amigo mio, if you were watching then, for any American to even get a sniff of a look at playing as a pro in Euroland meant that he was a baller! Really a soccer player dyed in the wool soccer player. Cuz any German or English coach is going to look at an American with glasses tainted "fuc{ outta here Yank!"
    So to somehow low talk a Lewis or Hejduk for not starting on top flight clubs back then is off base. Then there are the McBride and Reyna and Beasley men of that era that did start and had earned European club lore for their fans all because of their consistent work ethic and rugged tenacity (core American sports culture traits for sure!) over being the end all #10 starlet of the team. I mean Brian McBride has a pub named after him by the Fulham supporters inside their home ground over there.
    And for the love of GOD! Don't type Jeff Agoos in the same sentence of Earnie Stewart. Their attitudes to team, the crest and scoring goals at the World Cup in the correct net are light years in difference! HA!

    Read here my friend.
    That era played Ze Germans in a friendly in Orlando iirc, we came out and beat them 3-0! Now that I think on it, we beat Germany in the old Confederations Cup 3-0 in 1999 didn't we?!? A match versus the damn Germans, in anger, and we sent them packing in a tournament. Not too many nations can ever say that. That era of our National Team culture, is the standard to compare future teams with.
     
  16. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I was on that train until I watched how much Steffen's struggles against Mexico stifled the entire team and how much Guzan's decisiveness against Uruguary helped the few times we were pressured.

    I think another Steffen-esque performance would have eliminated any benefit for the rest of the team.
     
  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i remember the kirovski goal and how we used to beat good teams like brazil.

    the snob thing talks down the skill we have had before, and is actually making a virtue of abandoning team defense, effort, and organization that were a core value of the better teams.

    kind of like voter ID laws tend to not be putting in initial requirements for proof of who you are, but instead in reality are usually a trimming down of previously acceptable means of proving who you are (often using stats on which groups used which items).
     
  18. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019
    Those places are hotbeds of athletic talent for other sports in Texas.

    The model to follow would be the models for football and basketball where private school coaches recruit talent from those areas. It would take a shift in athletic priorities from schools.
     
  19. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I have a love/hate relationship with having Goldman guy running the federation. On one hand, they are a company with a highly unethical recent history. On the other, Goldman is a highly professional and competent organization that only hires smart, hardworking people.

    And the USSF needs a ton of that. It's not a shock that it's Cordeiro pushing back against the Berhalter-for-CEO campaign. And I'd argue most non-profits could use a for profit person. The clarity of direction and bias to action in a for profit enterprise is something the USSF needs to adopt.

    As to your second point, that's the infrastructure that Earnie Stewart is leading. I see a lot of confusion here as to what's Earnie's job, etc. but I think what is happening is pretty clear. This whole play like the Dutch experiment is Earnie -- pretending it is Berhalter (Jay or Gregg) is wrong. It's Earnie.

    As for Germany, yes, we can mimic that part, but my point is that we don't have the money or the pro system -- which had a much bigger effect -- that they did.

    My #1 critcism of USSF is their lack of engagement with the Latino and African-American communities. Some aspects of this are hard and expensive, but some things are easy, and there seems to be a culture at USSF that only thinks Europe is worthy.
     
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  20. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    ..mmmmmm…..not really. I thought about that before and if you see 24-30 as ideal age for WC tournament 2026, that would be the pool of 17-23 in 2019. Will there be one or two breakout stars who are 19 and 22 ? Sure. But there will also be one or two losses to injury among our biggest stars in the 24-30 range.

    i.o.w., look at u17's and u20's, u23's of today and you've got our 2026 pool, pretty much, after taking into consideration our senior team today which we say isn't good enough. You can catch the u17's at their world cup in Brazil in October.

    The u20's had one good cb at wc this summer. The second one was a big step down.There was no monster 6 altho that position does skew to older more developed players. There were various good cmids. We have some interesting forwards but remember that Berhalter insists on a certain style of play for the cf and his wingers are wide players with limited roles and a lot of chalk on the boots.

    No, the 2026 team may not be entirely in focus but the big picture is there and it is not a miracle in the making.
     
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  21. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019
    I'm interested to see what you think is an example of this and also how you would address it in your opinion.
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #122 juvechelsea, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    i disagree. it always struck me that you'd get to state in club and all the smaller cities would disappear. el paso might or might not field a team at state. i am sure they had teams in some league someplace. and then it was always SA, Austin, Houston, Dallas. in league we would never see deep South Texas teams, no corpus, no victoria, no brownsville. am i really fighting football and basketball for hispanics? nope, don't buy it. i might be for tyler or longview. but you see with dempsey to play high level ball he headed for dallas. just like college station's shea came and played in houston.

    i realize the big cities might dominate state. but like you would never see these smaller cities in LEAGUE. [you might play their HS but that's different. and to me if your high level of competition is HS then you tend to either be drilled but useless or talented but unfit. you need the year round game and the training and fitness.]

    and my thing is if you're not seeing small city or inner city kids in division one league play here then they are unlikely ODP/college recruiting targets. the people who played ODP or college from here tended to all know each other. oh, yeah, you played for __________. reshuffling of the same decks.

    the only place i see inroads is that RGV has youth teams. and the dynamo has teams, but they seem parasitic of the larger club system. otherwise i don't see shift in the landscape despite decades of time passing.

    FCD does better but then my memory as a kid was dallas had half a dozen teams as good as our best 2 in Houston. that plus FCD has some history bringing kids up.

    i don't know why the academies don't set up more small city outposts here. we are so spread out you aren't cannibalizing players who wouldn't even be on the big city teams. there are some Memo Rodriiguez exceptions but to me the smaller cities could be tapped more. as opposed to fighting existing clubs you would be the only show in town.
     
  23. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is a strange thing to say given that Bradenton was started in 1999 with the inaugural class including Donovan, Beasley, Beckerman, Gooch ...
     
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  24. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019

    The youth teams that represented the US at tournaments will not be the only sources of players for those national teams. Not only that, but its highly likely that the team will include some 17 or 18 year old player(s), who are currently between the ages of 11 and 12!

    Talent in the US is beginning to look like a flood. It will hit terminal velocity at some point soon. Its getting to the point where MLS is going to have to begin making academy rules that require so many roster slots per team to be designated to homegrown signings.
     
  25. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    A big part of the problem on the rw forward is Cannon.
     

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