Polska hooligan culture?

Thanks for the info, tredowski.

When I meant clothing I was talking about the Casual scene not club colors or patches.

 

What statistics? If you're looking for archives of incidents and riots I'm not gonna do your homework for you. Just check out some Nation Crime Reports and hooligan sites and you can find out everything.

I'm not sure why you seem so obsessed with proving Polish hooligans are the "best" in the world. I never said anything contradicting that and like tredowski said, is it really something to be proud of?

 

there's no casual culture to speak of in poland, at least in the sense of "looking" the part. however most major clubs have very active hoolie firms, which arrange fights outside stadiums, and are anything but a bunch of drunken mugs. last season there was an incident when warsaw and gdansk mobs met in a field 100 kilometers north of warsaw. unfortunately, the culture is saturated with right wing tendencies, but to a large extent, this is also the case in england and everywhere else in europe. on the other hand, over the past few years there has been a slow emergence of leftie supporters groups (don't know about hooligans). the situation in poland is similar to that at glasgow celtic, where there is a tiny casual presence, but "scarfers" and "shirts" often fight as well. believe it or not, i've seen pictures of hoolies wearing stone island in the moscow firms. don't know how they can pay for that gear. anyway, here's a link you might want to check out. http://www.geocities.com/hoolinfo/

 

unfortunately, the culture is saturated with right wing tendencies, but to a large extent, this is also the case in england and everywhere else in europe.
Well, I'd say in parts of England and in some European countries. There's plenty of groups that aren't right-wing and that have nothing to do with politics. For example, my favorite English club Birmingham City has many black guys in their firm.

i've seen pictures of hoolies wearing stone island in the moscow firms. don't know how they can pay for that gear.
Yeah, you rarely see that in Russia. Some of those Moscow derbies turn into full-scale riots. Maybe they are connected to the mob. That would explain it.

the situation in poland is similar to that at glasgow celtic, where there is a tiny casual presence, but "scarfers" and "shirts" often fight as well.
A bit suprised to hear that. I'd imagine there are many more actual hooligans that follow Polish clubs than Celtic and G*rs. There's the ICF and CSC but nothing on that scale. I have seen "scarfers" of the Old Firm firsthand fighting but that's just for that match. Nothing in the world compares to it.

 

there are TONS of hoolies that follow polish clubs, they're just not of the english "casual" mold. you'll never see anyone in poland wearing si, cp company, mandarina duck, burberry, etc. the idea of not wearing club colors is catching on, but that's the extent of it. for the most part it's like it was in the 70's in england. scarfers ARE the hooligans.

 

Yeah, I've read it. Some of the Brimson books are good but my favorite on hooliganism is Among the Thugs by Bill Buford, an American.

 

OK, let's put this "fact" to bed, finally: Warsaw, Lodz and Krakow have more Polish people than Chicago.

 

wasn't too crazy about "among the thugs". basically bill buford latches on to a bunch of drunken slobs with fish and chip staines on their shirts, and depicts them as hooligans, which they weren't. some of my favs-"steaming in", bloody casuals", "guvnors".

 

yeah, waht's up with that. what are the facts. before i moved here from california, i alway heard that that's the case. if there were a million polish people in chicago, it'd be a third of the city, which isn't true. are there realy a million in the chicagoland area?

 

oops. i forgot about this thread. i know that there is about 3 million people in chicago. my point was that if there truly were 1 million polish people in the city, it would make 1 out of 3 chicagoans polish, which doesn't seem to be the case. and i don't need to come visit. i already live here.

 

You are probably right about Chicago being the second largest Polish population in the world at some point in history. However, it seems that this was the case many years ago. I would have to perform a pretty difficult search of when could this have taken place but I think that it would unfortunately have to be... in 1920s or 1930s. It would be necessary to check what the population of Lodz, for example, was during those years. Chicago might have taken second place in 1950s again since Poland's population declined sharply with the outbreak of WW II.

I have been trying to fight this very long lived stereotype for as long as I came to Chicago. It just seems to be some outrageously stupid case of local patriotism and Chicagoans just can't get over the fact that this is long long not true.

First, you have to compare apples and oranges.

The Polish population of Chicago (including later generations AND illegals) is around 400,000. This places Chicago 8th, behind Warsaw, Lodz, Krakow, Wroclaw, Poznan, Gdansk and Szczecin. This has been a case for more than 25 years because the populations of these Polish cities have been established in the 1970s and have not changed much since with the exception of the first three which grew rather significantly.

The Polish population of Chicago metropolitan area, or "Chicagoland" is around 1,150,000. This places Chicagoland 4th in metropolitan areas, behind Katowice, Warsaw, and Lodz. Lodz only recently surpassed Chicago but Katowice and Warsaw most probably were always larger in their metropolitan populations than the Polish population in Chicagoland. The problem here is that before WW II, the metropolitan area of Katowice was divided by the border between Poland and Germany and did not necessarily have more Poles than Chicago (I am a little weak on this subject but you probably need a real expert to answer this) hence Chicagoland could have been the home of second largest Polish population until late 1940s or early 1950s.

So far my reasoning was that Americans tried to compare Chicagoland against single Polish cities without their suburbs which was just plain wrong. However, you brought a good point here, and I think you are right with your first statement. Chicago and Chicagoland were most probably second in their Polish populations among cities and metropolitan areas, respectively, at some point in history.

You are also right with your second statement which says that Chicagoland is second only after Warsaw in Polish population but then why does one compare Polish cities and American metropolitan areas?

There is also one more interesting fact that I have to mention. Depending on what one includes in the New York City metropolitan area, its Polish population may be larger than that of Chicagoland!!! However, the Polish population of NYC tends to be more americanized since mostly further generations live there now and they get less mention because their attachment to the culture, language and old motherland is much weaker.

 

the polish people in Illinois are pussies. Real polska lives in Hamtrammck, michigan. there is even a polish grocery there with a large poster of Dudek when you walk in, no joke.

 

I have to tell you that you are pretty much wrong. A lot of the Polish firms travel in the entirely casual mode; sometimes they don't even bring the flags with them. One example is Ruch Chorzow. However, this is much more complicated than it seems. Ruch may be really colorful during their derby with GKS and they may be total casuals when visiting Pogon Szczecin. It just depends on who makes the trip--hooligans, ultras, scarfers, a mixture of any two or all three.

The Szczecin ultras and hooligans won't even travel together although they may both show up at the same match. The very good example was a match at Slask Wroclaw last year.

The interesting thing is that the casual looks may be promoted in lower divisions where there may be a real scarcity of shirts, scarves, even flags. A lot of small club supporter groups have chosen this mode and have been doing it for quite some time. I can just mention some examples from my area (Flota Swinoujscie) but I am sure that there are plenty of them all over Poland.

As far as the clothing manufacturers are concerned, Poland copes with their lack of money by creating their own firms. Different manufacturers are preferred in different areas of Poland. A quick lecture of any issue of "To My Kibice", the first long-lasting Polish national fan zine (pretty much monthly), will keep you updated. Ask me and I will lend some to you.

 

when i say "casual", i don't just mean not wearing colors. while hoolies in poland are starting to catch on to that, we simply don't have the english type of casual hooligan. money may be a small part of it, but i don't think it's the whole picture. we don't have the culture of working class youth spending unthinkable amounts of money on select, ever changing clothing lables traditionally "belonging" to the upper classes. the english have had that tradition since the 60's. you can loosely trace today's terrace culture in england back to the days of mods in early 60's, all the way through skins, suedeheads, etc. untill very recently, if you asked an average skinhead in poland, when the culture originated, he would say the 80's. he'd be wearing an oversized flight jacket, and probably spout bullsh!t about nationalism, and white power. if the casual culture does catch on in poland, it's got a way to go.

 

i'd be interested to know what the polish born population within the chicago city limits is. as far as i'm concerned, if you weren't born in poland, you may claim ancestry, but you certainly aren't polish. you simply don't share the cultural experience.

 

I don't necessarily agree with this, and you might rethink it if you'd ever seen some of the Polish neighborhoods in Chicago. Polish signs on the stores, Polish beer in the bars, Polish spoken everywhere. Granted, it's not exactly like being born in Poland, but it's not exactly like being born anywhere else in America either. Cultural limbo.

 

There are many 3rd-4th generational Polish here that still speak their grandparents tongue so they can communicate with them. These are the ones that obviously keep tighter ties to their "homeland" and claim ancestry. You'll see these types joining Polish "clubs". There's some sort of Polish union in Toledo, I've seen.

My girlfriend is different. Her grandparents came from Poland and worked hard to learn English, so her father never had to. Therefore she knows like 10 words, tops...probably mostly food-related words. She's the type that would love to lose her name (Choinski) for the more regal name, Bailey

On the other hand, my friend Mike Calik was basically forced to learn Polish. His parents refused to learn English and stress everything Polish upon him. So of course he has strong ties, though he's never been (and probably never will be) in Poland.

So, what would we say the Chicago Polish supporters are? I'd say although they call themselves Ultras, they're definitely a mixture of all types.

I love languages in general, and I love hearing immigration stories and such. My buddy, Seba (see the pics on my Crew scrapbook 2002) is a huge supporter of Gornik, but he appreciated the attendance at our games, even if we weren't battling traveling supporters...

I like Pierogi's, too.

 

There are many, many Chicagoans whose parents were born in Poland, and even grandparents, who truly feel Polish.

They have been raised speaking the language, attending Saturday schools and belonging to harcerstwo, going to Polish-language Mass at church. They frequent Polish night clubs and stores, attend the showing of Polish films and cultural events.

In many cases, they are more Polish than some of the nowoprzybyli who, upon arrival, doff any pretense of being Polish: not speaking Polish to their children at home, drinking Heineken and Absolut, etc.

Meanwhile, poor Ted still continues his paranoid attack on Chicago. It's just so sad, even more so because he lives in Ohio.

 

WRONG! It is not poor Ted, it is middle class Ted. You are now taken off my glumky tasting party invitation list. NO SOUP FOR YOU Krolpolski.

 

i live in chicago, in logan square. i'm a walk away from polish bars and shops. having grown up in poland, and then spent 10 years in california, the polish american culture here is very interesting to me. i went to a couple of polish fests when i first moved here, and it was a completely alien experience. yes there was polish beer and pierogi (which i ate maybe once a year growing up in poland), but then there were people dancing to facking polka. i don't know if that's something that originated in poland, but i certainly have never seen or heard it growing up in warsaw. i agree with you about the cultural limbo bit. it's like a culture stuck in some far off, half imagined time, that is neither fully american, nor fully polish. when i say i find it hard to consider someone like that polish, it is because we lack a common cultural experience. if you haven't lived in a massive, gray housing estate; haven't drank warm beer from a "beer booth" when you were 11; haven't traveled in the luggage compartment of a "football special" train, then to me you're not polish. of course i also think everything outside of warsaw city limits should be divided between germany and russia, so there you go

 

the vast majority of the ultras, and all of the "core" of us that started it all, were born and raised in poland.