This topic came to me when I was talking with my fellow Arsenal fans about Bergkamp. We were wondering if Bergkamp actually hit his peak with Ajax (3 times top scorer, 2nd Ballon D'or, 2 times Dutch PotY, UEFA Cup winner) rather than at Arsenal, where he played about 200 more games for. We talked about Liam Brady as well, and wondered if he was at his peak with us or in Italy. This got me thinking about other players who are maybe in similar situations. For example, Matthaus is a Bayern legend, but he was arguably at his peak with Inter Milan. What other players can you think of?
Gheorghe hagi he is mostly associated with galatasary(he is a God there in the literalist sense) This is inspite of the fact His peak was at steaua bucharest in the late 80s he was the most prolific scoring attacking midfielder in the history of European football (that I’m aware of) Some of the goals he scored there actually have to be seen to be believed(chipping goal keepers standing on the goal line for example ,FKs from all angles and distances,the cannon left foot,the genuis visionary long passes just a totally amazing and criminally underrated player you Could say puskas is mostly associated with Real Madrid and the European Cup success even though his prime was undoubtedly at honved Stoichkov won the European golden shoe in Bulgaria but achieved his peak in terms of international recognition and major trophies at Barcelona Where was he best at, I’m not so sure Van basten associated with Milan mostly when at least from my own observations he looked more rounded,skillfull,prolific and generally just more devastating for Ajax than he did in Italy Zidane at juventus or Real Madrid(he is most commonly associated with the latter but did he actually improve as a player in Spain) There are some others I can’t think of at this moment in time but will come back to this probably soon
Great topic which evokes a lot of thought and is quite hard to come up with clear ones....for example some players are heavily linked with two clubs, say Zola re Chelsea but also Parma, arguably the later less so but where he was in my view at his peak. The two I have come up with are Jimmy Greaves, 9 seasons at Tottenham. over 250 goals, CWC, FA Cup wins, multiple top scorer accolades, but was he any better than when he played at an inferior Chelsea team and scored so many goals their including 41 league goals in 60-61 and also scored 13 England goals that season. The other one is maybe a long shot and I know a someone who could comment more but maybe Krol, synonymous with the Ajax team of the early 70s and total football but was he better in the few seasons in Napoli, the 80-81 season specifically.
There was a poster @babaorum that suggested Michel platini was already at his juventus level when he was playing for saint etienne (the implication being that he did not necessarily improve as a player but just received wider acclaim when he played in Italy) This is a less obvious case and not as easy to prove considering all of his ballon dor wins came in Italy With regards to Dennis bergkamp this is something I have previously thought about His ballon dor runner up position came when he was an Ajax player(his greatest international performances also took place in the 90s particularly the first half with Euro 92 ) 97/98 is his pinnacle at Arsenal (the performance vs Leicester city arguably the greatest individual performance of the entire PL era) He was in this season amongst the best performers at club level just below R9 and on par with Del piero/Zidane and I’d even throw baggio into the equation with his great resurgent form at Bologna I don’t think bergkamp ever replicated that 97/98 form again for Arsenal Would it be fair to say his best league form came with Arsenal FC and his best European form came with Ajax(in the uefa Cup)
There's a couple Brazilians of 1982 squad that I still wonder about as well. Both Leo Junior and Falcao played Italy in the 80s. Were they at their peak there? Leo Junior is very popular in Italy and the same is true of Falcao whose called '8th Kind of Rome'. Falcao is more associated with Roma, and I suspect his peak was there as well. I'm less sure about Leo Junior and Torino. That's an interesting one for sure. The only game of Zola in Parma shirt I saw was the 1994 Cup Winners Cup, which my focus was mostly on my own team, so I don't even remember how good he was that night. Like Bergkamp, he scored more goals before moving to England, and I do remember Chelsea fans going absolutely nut when they signed him (just like we did when we signed Bergkamp). On the topic of Parma, Thuram is an interesting case. For whatever reason, in the English speaking world, he is more associated with Juventus than Parma despite winning a World Cup and a EURO while playing for Parma, and also actually played more games for Parma than Juventus. I suspect it's different in Italy. Indeed. This is one that used to be in my thoughts a lot when I was researching 70s defenders (which resulted in me rating Figueroa as a top CB and Krol now among the best defenders in my personal rankings). I never saw Krol outside the context of Ajax and Netherlands, so I have no idea, but I had the same question.
To be honest I always felt 96/97 at Chelsea was Zola's peak (ok, he was then in my 'home' league and it was at that stage still the more open of the two...but I did watch Serie A quite a bit in his time - even at one point perhaps seeing more live games from Italy than England due to TV rights...although Parma weren't as featured as some but then I watched the Saturday morning highlights shows too so will have basically seen his most notable plays and goals in that). Maybe just different perspectives (and impressions in real time) between us, or maybe you are looking at stats for your view a bit too? Over a period of years then I could go with his Parma version (it was more in his prime years age wise of course, but I think right at the start of his Chelsea career he was in top nick and I think he's alluded to differences between that time and say 02/03 when he's said in some ways he's more proud of doing something ace as he was less physically capable than when he joined). DBS Calcio ratings back up my idea I suppose (he tops them for 96/97 in England and that's even without the FA Cup!). The other two are harder calls for me really, but I see your ideas behind the calls anyway.
The Krol one could perhaps even be seen in reverse too lol (iconic at Napoli, but better at Ajax?)? Maybe the truth would be his level would be quite similar as libero at the end of his Ajax time and start of Napoli time? The Greaves one is complicated perhaps by goals per game rate changes during the 60s, but I don't rule it out (I only feel he was really a very good player at Tottenham so any claim he was even better at Chelsea would be very notable!). Not meaning to try to disagree with all of your calls anyway AD78 lol! I guess a lot of these can be borderline and hard to call too. Zola at Chelsea in 96/97 I stick by (my view at the time and still now) though but no worries to disagree (maybe it's good if we do so that the thread then has a 'balanced'/disputed view overall, which might give the best and most realistic overall impression).
I see your point re 96/97 but still think 94/95 was stronger, I remember at one point on Football Italia James Richardson talking about he was one of favorites for the Ballon d'or as Parma were challenging on three fronts, but only won the UEFA cup, the poor start to 95/96 season meant he dropped to sixth but for the season was definitely higher.
Thanks, interesting to know! I mean it's very feasible I saw the programme and heard that comment too, but I didn't recall it. As I've posted (with video) before, in the end Vialli won the Football Italia Player of the Season, with Zola being a nominee but finishing behind Batistuta and Savicevic too, and slightly ahead of Ferrara I think it was. Anyway, clearly (as user names suggest) we are of the same era, so it's just slightly different perspectives/memories from similar viewing I suppose. I just felt he was really ingenious at times in that Chelsea season. Similarly I don't think he continued for the rest of 1997 so well, otherwise maybe he'd have been in the mix for a very good tally of Ballon d'Or points that year also.
Agree re 96/97 at Chelsea, I think only World Soccer Magazine award had him as high as he should have been (maybe too high at 3) so agree re Ballon d'or drop pf na lower than he should have been I just think he was so good in 94/95 in a much much stronger league. Re Krol, surely he has to be more linked with Ajax, 12 seasons, 6 league titles, 4 Dutch Cups 3 European Cups, 2 European Super Cup, Intercontinental cup.... versus Napoli?
Hmm, possibly best I don't get into inconclusive and tricky arguments about league vs league I guess, but maybe I'd reduce the statement by one 'much' at least lol (esp. 94/95 Serie A vs Premier League 96/97 which then had Bergkamp and others....and I think using the 'Bergkamp in Serie A' test can be a bit misleading or unfair overall just like using a 'Shevchenko in Premier League' test would be later - maybe a 'Carbone in Serie A/Premier League' comparison is reasonable but I think he played very well in both at times, like Zola but to a lesser extent; Zola's Parma team-mate Asprilla could be another point of comparison maybe)! Re: Krol, yeah in some ways sure as he was a mainstay of a very successful Ajax and involved in the great Dutch 1974 WC campaign and then later a revered libero for club and country before leaving - I just wonder if we look at the 'fans idol' factor whether Napoli comes out on top - he was a prominent player and kind of imported cult hero for a couple of seasons it seems (a bit like Zola at Chelsea indeed even, albeit in a very different role). Ajax had Cruyff, plus Neeskens/Keizer/Rep etc, although probably later Krol was the most noted player and yep historically it does seem right to associate him with that club true.
This is a very interesting idea, and I have some ideas for this (will do later). One thing of this is it can differ by country or region. For example Stanley Matthews is here mostly associated with Blackpool (1947 - 1961, he was 32 when he debuted for them) but this might be different in other countries. He was probably better and more capable of regular contributions for Stoke City. George Weah is mostly associated with Milan, but it seems that e.g. Henry and other Frenchmen associate him just as well with Monaco and PSG. Case can be made Weah was in only one Milan season better, while at least two Milan seasons were below what he did in the then-strong French league (and in Europe). Another fascinating sight is when the players themselves are rightly associated with one club, but they (indirectly) signal to have played with 'better' folks elsewhere. Jan Molby is rightly associated with Liverpool, which was a top team, but when he mentioned his ten 'world class players' (+ JC14, who was a tier above in his eyes) the majority of those came from other teams (although Laudrup could have gone to Liverpool!). https://play.acast.com/s/bloodred2/...ff-koeman-and-his-greatest-liverpool-memories (the relevant part is at 10:15 onward) Here his 'one2eleven', which is (mostly) quite consistent with what he said above. Peter Schmeichel; Phil Neal Alan Hansen Morten Olsen Steve Nicol Frank Rijkaard Michael Laudrup John Barnes Johan Cruyff Ian Rush Marco van Basten https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/9293880/one2eleven-jan-molby (12 minutes video with explanation) https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/24kh91/jan_molbys_best_xi/ -------------------------- TAT: In your book ‘Jan the Man’ you mentioned you did a drill with Johan Cruyff where you tried to hit the corner flag from the half way line. Where you ever successful and was he a figure you looked up to? Jan Molby: Yes, I think so. It was my first professional football club; I was about 18/19 and suddenly bumped into one of Europe’s finest Johan Cruyff. He had a lot of time for younger players and it was more how he viewed the game that helped us get better. You have players who have exceptional talent that have niche aspects to their game that nobody else does and he was one of them. The drill he was doing with us was about playing into space, one thing that defenders dislike. Once I got the pace of the English game, prior to that it felt like 200 miles-per-hour, I think people saw the qualities I picked up and reaped the rewards from the drill. Ian Rush would hopefully say I benefited from the drill. Was I successful? You’re allowed to tell porkies once or twice. I hit it now and then near the corner flag. The main aspect of the experience was being with Cruyff who constantly talked of how to improve and something that I always remember to this day is when left footers miss penalties, when they do I say: ‘Johan Cruyff told me that’. Just little things like that. It is things that you remember for the rest of your life. https://theanfieldtalk.com/interview-jan-molby-part-one
So here some rough ideas, with regards to 'peak at club'; Maradona is associated with Napoli, but was maybe better around 1980, 1981 (I think the argument for 1979 is very weak). Some would say so. Puskas is now more famous for Real Madrid, but was perhaps better and had a slightly more diverse role at Honved. Ronaldo Luis is now maybe more known for his spells at Barcelona and Real Madrid by a younger public. Zidane is for sure now more famous for his Real Madrid association, but had more good seasons for Juventus, and was also quicker. Had more good CL and league seasons for Juventus overall. Van Basten and Bergkamp their 'talking points' are already mentioned above, but both remained influential players throughout (see Arsenal's European form with/without DB10). You don't get included in the 'Ultimate one2eleven' by chance, but yes I know PDG had the impression MvB in 1985 was as good as anything he showed for Milan. Stanley Matthews is (here) more famous for his Blackpool spell and games, but was probably better at Stoke City, also looking at things as England call-ups. Suarez Miramontes more pivotal for Internazionale, but is as much a Barcelona figure (if not more). Gullit remembered for Milan, but possibly as good at PSV and Sampdoria. Keegan more linked with Liverpool, but potentially at his peak at Hamburg. He himself said he was fitter, stronger and faster as a Hamburg player. Hagi, Matthaus and Krol are already discussed. Some doubtful cases as Klinsmann and Cannavaro that I'm very unsure of.
I remember you suggesting Van nistelrooy was never the same after his injury at PSV so he could be another Is Zlatan Ibrahimovic associated with 1 club in particular It’s hard to say even so he scored more goals after 30 than before https://www.football365.com/news/zlatan-ibrahimovic-the-very-ridiculous-statistics-manchester-united Mostly for Paris Saint Germain so historically he would be associated mostly with this club Despite the goals (and this has been covered )his highest level was probably in 2009 for inter Milano @PDG1978 suggested awhile ago that shevchenvos dribbling prime occurred at an earlier stage in his career for Dynamo Kiev He quite evidently had an extra yard of pace scored some solo goals and had Already proved his worth in the CL with some outstanding performances I’ve actually heard it suggested before he was already a BSITW candidate in 98/99. The accolades came in droves afterwards when he went to Milan which is natural considering the stature of the club and league he played in(it also helps that Milan was by a distance the most stacked Italian club side in the early part of the century)
Thanks for the mentions (I wouldn't be 100% sure btw on Van Basten/Shevchenko examples....but as illustrated with some choices I did feel they were good enough to be considered among the best players in the world most likely at their 'home' clubs anyway). One example that comes to mind is certainly Alan Shearer - showed enough iconic moments, and had many seasons, with his home town club Newcastle to be both more linked to them by general fans and more idolised by Geordies than Blackburn fans now, but all in all had his prime period with Blackburn (even talking just of his own form, as we should do for this, rather than winning the Premier League).
He was a bit more capable of individual actions I think and was already very prolific in the Champions League back then (8 non-penalty goals in 15 games, including Valencia, Bayern, Benfica). I wouldn't say he was at his best in everything and certainly he was more important for the national team after his first two knee injuries. He dribbled his way through defenses (like Ajax and such) with pace back then. Yes, this is a very good example. Alan Shearer too. I think Shevchenko had also that weaving ability in his first two Milan seasons (first 1.5 ?) but yes not really after that and that's when most of his accolades flowed in, because Milan came back to the top. Milan was so-so in his first three Milan seasons, but then bounded back after Nesta, Seedorf arrived summer 2002 (and Pirlo establishing himself as a starter in 2003). That's when he was past his dribbling prime I'd say but less sure for his first two Milan seasons tbh.
Good shout, can't believe ii missed that one !! Shearer I believe was at his peak for Blackburn, faster and took players on more but just much longer at Newcastle, local player, captain, all time scorer etc..
Yeah, we were bound to 100% agree on one sooner or later! Your Greaves call could actually be a better one but yeah just hard for us to be sure how well he played at the two clubs. The similarity is that he stayed much longer at Tottenham of course, so maybe that is where we should be looking for examples - very high peak at one club and long career at another. Milan wanting to buy Greaves is another good sign obviously (just as them wanting to pay a lot for Shevchenko is notable too).
R9 was known as a “mercenary” during his playing career Despite this all his clubs supporters have fond memories of him R9 is an ambassador of Real Madrid I believe(a ceremonial role I think) In any case a better suggestion imo would’ve been Luis figo who is definitely mostly associated with Real Madrid. His best was at Barcelona but they still don’t want anything to do with him The typically controversial Stoichkov is at the forefront of the figo hate brigade and has been for 10+ years https://www.google.com/amp/s/en.as.com/en/2016/07/29/football/1469817600_392425.amp.html?espv=1 There is little chance whatsoever of reconciliation.pretty sad because he provided them Many great moments
Probably not, maybe Falcão had some of his peak there, some. Most great foobtallers peaks about 24 imo. Cruyff 1971/1972, Pelé 1965, Maradona 1984/1985, Cristiano Ronaldo 2009/2010 (peak of his athleticism, biggest number of dribbles, key passes, shots on target per match, biggest number/ratio of solo goals), Messi 2011/2012, someone can argue about Neymar 2015/2016 too.
I think there is a lot of “myth” surrounding 84/85 maradona being his so called undisputed peak due to DBS calcio awarding him a rare high score in Serie A Albeit in a lower level league I think 82/83 maradona outstrips this comfortably(especially if your definition of “peak” is a volume dribbler than maradona in Europe never dribbled or scored as much as he did in Spain He Scored more solo goals in 82/83 than he did in his entire Napoli career Maradona was 22 years old here
Could be very well in 82/83 or in 84/85, it is hard to compare differente leagues tho. About Falcão he indeed won the Escrete Bonzão da Ponto Frio (Best Player of Campeonato Brasileiro) already in 1976... 1975: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Also Falcão as the Bola de Ouro by Revista Placar in 1978, 1979 as well... https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bola_de_Ouro
Ah misleading Maradona video #2456. No way he had his peak in club form at Barcelona, that is flat out wrong.
Most footballers of Falcao his type actually peak in the second half of their twenties, as did the great sweepers of the past. I'll not list them all (because it will be in vain) but think of Xavi, Pirlo etc. for a start. Part of this is not only mental, but also physiological. The more important stamina and interval fitness is, the more likely the 'peak' will be in the 2nd half of the twenties. I don't make this up.