Player Eligibility and Switching National Teams: Case Studies & General Discussion

I didn't miss the point you have just introduced a new one my original discussion was about Barca's role in developing players and specifically Messi. Of course players like Xavi and Iniesta don't come around very often I was never arguing that Barca could just churn out that level of player at will or that it was all Barca's doing that they are as good as they are. What I was saying is that Barca is about more then just scouting the right young players. They played a role in making Messi the player he is as they have with all of the players that have come up through their system. There isn't a magic gene in Catalonia that allows them to produce more professional footballers then other areas of the world. Barca's academy has produced a lot of professionals they didn't just scout the right players. Barca still concentrates a lot on developing player not bringing them in. The important players on the first team are still mostly homegrown players and that will still be the case after Xavi retires. We are a long way from Iniesta retiring so I can't really speak to what the team will look like then

 

My memory must be failing me, and this guy reminded me of all the players in the current team which are not homegrown. I'm just asking for the same information on homegrown players. And this is without counting with all the players Barca has let go in big time trasnfers over the past 2-3 years which are also not homegrown.

 

LOL england soccer academies? you just proved my point by mentioning england academies... they have more money, facilities and resources that all of latin america put together and still they cant produce a player of the caliber that comes out of latin america

once again players are born not made, academies dont make them they help them fulfill their potential.. the US has spend millions also in trying to catch up to the rest of the world in soccer but they cant...

la masia is no different than any other soccer academy in the world.. they are as good as the players that they get... they just got lucky that they have a good generation of great players that came through at the same time that's all.. it has nothing to do with la masia being this special place that puts out great players every year

la masia has over 300 kids every year if they are that good how come only a couple come out to be great... and the majority that become great are not locals are kids they scouted from other parts of spain or countries that they sign at an early age and bring to la masia...

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If the quality of academies didn't matter Ajax wouldn't be able to develop as many professional football players decade after decade as they do given that a large portion of their players come from their area. Germany is a perfect example of the difference a good player development program can have on the level of player you produce. We know what German football players played like before they revamped their player development program. Its no coincidence Germany can now produce players like Ozil


England scouts Latin America if all they had to do was import Latin American prodigies a lot more of their Latin American imports would pan out because England has the best scouts in the world. We would at a minimum have a club that was similar to Barca in finding those prodigies and getting them to the first team. English clubs had been following your line of thinking in the past they would just go out and find the best players.

Money doesn't equal a good player development program. England as is made very clear with their national team has a very poor player development system where as Argentina and Brazil have great player development programs its not about money its about how you TEACH your players to play the game.


La mesia has developed a large portion of the Catalan national team do you think just being born somewhere makes you good? Catalonia just happens to give birth to several professional football players but players born in the USA are just genetically determined to not be as good?

I have seen how the USA's development process works they are still trying to figure it out while Catalonia that has a population much smaller to draw from but they can produce a large amount of players that are technically skilled unlike their American counterparts that isn't due to money but rather how they develop players.

Obviously if you work with several 100 kids not all of them will be able to reach the same level of play I am NOT arguing prodigies aren't born with special abilities but any player that has come up through La Mesia is going to be a very technical player that is very smart tactically because aspects of this sport can be taught like anything else. If Messi had been taught in a country with poor player development he would at a minimum be less knowledgeable tactically because we aren't born knowing how to play in a 4-3-3 formation the ability to do so may come easier to some but it isn't something you are born with.

I am not sure if you have played this sport but if you have do you think you were just born to play it the way you do and your coaches didn't influence your game at all?

 

If Messi played in Argentina he would have been the same player, with less exposure and more unknown. Take any of the great brazilian and argentinean players as an example and you'll see that they were better than anyone, could play with anyone, tactically and skillfully. Great players defy tactics, actually, they create them, since the other coach has to try and figure something out to try and stop that player.

Also, you guys forget that the main reason S. American players don't work in England is because of the culture. The english culture is not a good fit with the S. American players, this has been proven over and over. If a player is not happy of where he is, doesn't feel welcomed by his team mates, is home sick etc. HE WILL UNDER PERFORM!! And England does a crappy job at making their multi million dollar investments feel like they belong on their squad.

Portugal is the doorway to Brazilian players as they have a closer cultural connection, same for Spain and the Argentinean. Most higher social class players from Brazil that go over to Europe, they can fit anywhere. But that's not likely the case since tons of these players are from poor backgrounds.

But this discussion usually ends with this type of conversation... they get paid well to play, stop bitching and play. Which is the wrong way to go about it.

 

If Messi had developed in Argentina he would still be a great player because as I said they have a great player development system in place. All of the top players in todays game understand team tactics

As far as culture being the reason guys can't make it work in England that doesn't work because Brazilians that go to England are doing better then the Brazilians in Portugal at the moment especially now that Hulk isn't in Portugal anymore not many of the Brazilians in Portugal will get called to the national team far more of the ones playing in England will.

 

I did say higher social class players fit anywhere, right now you got Oscar, David Luiz and Sandro (which shouldn't be in the Nat Team) those 3 players are not from the slums, like most.

 

Which player went to England from the slums and failed just because of cultural reasons?

 

How many times did you see players joining an English team and not panning out? how many times do you see players from other countries going to english teams and not doing as well? just out of the top of my head I can think of Tevez. I'll do some more research in a bit and point out a lot of those no name players that came in and left without even playing 1 official match.

 

If they are no name players then it wasn't cultural issues otherwise they would have caught on somewhere else. Tevez case is unique and I don't buy that it was all cultural it had a lot more to do financial issues

 

Most of these players go back into their countries, or go play in Spain or Italy. Even Italian players have difficulty in England by the way. And Tevez was 100% cultural issues. To leave Argentina and go into Brazil wasn't that big of a transition for Tevez, when he left and went to England that was huge. He had problems with the culture, the language, the people, the cold, everything! and the most people's answer to his problem was give him more money and he'll shut up and play.

Here is a list of all foreign players that have played at least 1 game in the EPL this does not include players that didn't even break the starting squad but went on to play elsewhere.

Just reading the list 1 thing jumped out at me. France has a lot of players in England! and so does Spain! even on small teams, but you don't see Brazilians and Argentinean players on those smaller teams. That's mostly because to those players between being paid in England the same amount they would get paid in Spain / Italy even in Brazil and Argentina they rather leave England.

Didn't a Brazilian player just burnt his house down last year because of crazyness? He complained in the social media about being alone this and that.. then torched his house in Germany.

Adriano till this day sleeps in a Favela in Rio.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_Premier_League_players

Forgot to put the link! hahahaha

But to be honest, if a player is not born or has heritage back to the place, they shouldn't be in the National Team... like Brazilians on the Ukranian team

 

Tevez was doing fine at West Ham and Man U as well as City it wasn't until he wasn't allowed to transfer out of City that problems arose not when he first got there and felt the culture shock. That wasn't a cultural thing or it would have happened in his earlier years in England. If Tevez is who you had in mind then clearly your theory about culture shock preventing success has a lot of wholes in it because Tevez enjoyed success in England as soon as he arrived.

 

There is a reason a lot of people a lot more involved than us in this type of things have decided to start hiring relocation managers. Tevez situation brought up a bunch of things that before were considered non sense by most.
Now Man City has a relocation specialist!

Going to tell me they are spending that money for no reason also?

 

I won't deny that English clubs have gotten and continue to get better at integrating foreign players but Tevez would be fine playing in England for the next 10 years so long as he would be allowed to transfer as many times as he wanted. His agent and the unique deal he has with Tevez's rights has driven a lot of the problems not anything else that was all about money and again on the field he found success right away

 

I already pointed out that most players in barcelona werent developed by la masia. You keep talking about how great they are but they sign over 300 players a year and only put out a few good ones. Just like Ajax and any other academy in the world they scout get players and their reputation is as good as the players they get.

I'm not going to keep arguing cause you are a fanatic not a fan. But la masia didnt made messi, he was a great prospect at a young age and if he wouleve gone to ajax, real madrid, milan, bayern munich or any other academy in the world he wouldve turnout the same great player he is today.

Even if he wouldve stayed in argentina he would have turned out great. If you look at every world class player and read about their history you will find out that they all started out playing in their hometown. Once they showed promise they moved to a bigger club close by. Then they keep moving up until they make it to a big club.

La masia didnt make messi although they had some influence in his development he wouldve turned out great anywhere. They are just being over hyped cause they are going through a great period of finding gems.

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LOL wtf is this, only reason more players from england get called up is because they are better. England clubs have more money to spend and they buy the better players. Luiz, Ramires both started out in portugal and were bought by english teams. Also alex sandro, danilo silva, elias, bruno cesar, kleber are players that have been called up for selecao and all play in portugal. If it wasnt for the money brasilians would stay in portugal where they are more comfortable. In England the foreigners get treated badly and criticized a lot more compared to the locals. Just look at the comments arguero, suarez and tevez have made recently. In england they expect the foriegners especially those not from europe to do a lot more than the locals and even when they do they give the credit to the locals.

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You actually never did point out most players weren't developed in La mesia because it isn't true you just listed as many as you could that weren't and some of them actually did spend time at La Mesia so even that part was wrong. On any given day Barca has 6 or more starters that went through La Mesia not many other Champions league competitors can say the same thing and there is a reason for that. If what you said was true there would be other clubs that could field that many academy players though clearly you can't understand that point. Nobody in the football world thinks Ajax and Barca JUST rely on scouting. Scouting players is just PART of what they do

You didn't answer any of my questions. Do you think there is a genetic advantage in Catalonia that allows them to produces more professional footballers then a city like New York? La Mesia has nothing to do with it? We can exclude all the foreigners they sign and just look at the players they have signed from Catalonia for this question.

As far as Messi still being great if he had been developed in another great development program in Argentina or Bayern I agree and have said so several times now but that isn't the same as saying he was just born to be as good as he is. Messi isn't the player he is if he was born in Puerto Rico and brought up by the Islanders the right development plays a role. The level of player the Islanders produce isn't very high and likely never will be

 

If you read the post I was replying to you would understand why I was comparing the players in England to the ones in Portugal I KNOW those players are better. I also know there are some Brazilians playing in Portugal that get called I never said there weren't I said more of the ones playing in England are getting called up and again that was in context of a reply to somebody else's posts.

 

How would you explain a country like Japan. Did they suddenly develop the football gene and their improvements in player development played no role?

 

you should think about the question you just asked me and then come back.. you just proved my point... if player development is what matters why the same countries all over the world are the ones developing great players... italy, germany, france, brasil and argentina are the ones that you can always count on doing good at the world cup

spain is doing good now because of they changed their playing style not because they changed the way they developed players

and what about japan? they are an ok team and have a couple of world class players but that's it they arent that good


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The reason I brought up Japan is because they didn't have world class players and now they do how did that happen suddenly world class footballer just started being born in Japan one day?

The reason countries like Spain, Argentina the Netherlands are always producing the top talent is because they have great player development infrastructure in place and the countries that are beginning to rise up outside of Europe and South America all have one thing in common they have all improved the way they develop their players. However countries with very poor player development like Puerto Rico have no good footballers.

I will ask again do you think there is a magic football gene in small regional areas like Catalonia that produce far more footballers playing in the top leagues then entire countries do?

 

Does being on the bench for an official senior game count? I read somewhere a player is only capped tied once they play not just because they were called up