Platini va Maradons vs Zico

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Gregoire, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Doubted about whether I should tell this but there is also a infamous link between Ruud Krol and the here cited/mentioned El Grafico magazine...


    [at 35:00, English subtitled]

    It caused him huge troubles.

    The man that speaks was the 'guide' assigned to the 'Dutch camp' by the organization committee. He lived and stayed in the camp during the tournament.
     
  2. johnlee7799

    johnlee7799 New Member

    May 28, 2013
    Club:
    AD Sao Caetano
    di voi che non conoscono sito http://eurowintip.com? Ho sentito che il consulente che conduce calcio europeo con una qualità affidabile e superiore.
     
  3. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I don't have the numbers, except maybe for world cups, I think he hit the woodwork 3 times in 82 (against Belgium, italy, and el Salvador) and once in 86 (against Uruguay) His detractors criticise him for not scoring a fk in the world cup but he was clearly quite unlucky.
     
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    That's why Beckham was so famous for his FK (at WC level) :p
    He was also great but many overrated his a bit too much I think (even higher than Maradona LOL)
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    At hindsight I was a bit surprised by this sentence because you said in the other thread that the USA ceased to use such terms about Pelé at midway 1973. So it ended before he moved to the USA, while Cruijff was apparently still hailed as the best by them when he played there (I subconsciously assumed that the Americans did this with all their players). I indeed found a couple (with a quick search) who stated that.

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...Ww0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=QI4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6740,4372996

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...OUcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VI4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=2360,2665054

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...wIdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=244EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6705,2331879

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...fZNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FosDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2219,2651608

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...ms0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=QI4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=4957,3708765

    [probably some more exist but I did a quick search as said]

    In retrospective articles things like that also return:
    http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/493/foreign-diplomat

    [Pelé was obviously a bit older when he moved to the NASL - ~34 vs ~32 years old]

    Two others:
    http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20074372,00.html
    http://espnfc.com/columns/story?id=440207&root=global&cc=5739

    In any event, his first two years were a success so that explains the hoopla, to an extent. 'Official' MVP in 1979 and the soccer journalists in USA saw him both in 1979 and 1980 as best performer, through an extensive nation-wide poll.
    But I did not realize they were that enthusiastic (and after a search in the Dutch newspapers I couldn't find similar claims; the interest for football so far away in a 'circus league' was fairly minimal - the book I mentioned in the other thread made a mixed portrait about these years).
     
  6. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, I believe WC74 pretty much changed that perception in the States. Cruyff had taken over the mantle that Pele left off and pretty much held it until sometime around 1980 (although this view seemed to not be held in certain parts in Europe and South America by 1980).

    But good find. I noticed some match reports in the NASL were discussed in those links provided: Do you think you can track down most of his matches?
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks.

    Arsenij posted some things, which you maybe know and we also know his goals and assist totals of course.

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/johan-cruyff-matches-and-goals-scored.1865250/page-65

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/johan-cruyff-matches-and-goals-scored.1865250/page-66

    It seems that Arsenij figured out a lot (he even gained access to archives behind paywalls). Don't know whether I can add something or clarify something.


    Yes, the archives also helped me to clarify some other things. Like that Cruijff wanted to play as an amateur (without compensation) for Ajax for a month when Ajax had five/six injured players. He was willing to help them out (that was some time before his comeback in red-white colours).

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...kVNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KPsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5862,5391377

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...AFkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=T-cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5227,5691574

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...Q9IAAAAIBAJ&sjid=04AMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5370,3405338

    Against the Dutch press his commentary about the rejection (as mentioned in the links) was: "Such stupidity is only possible in Holland."
    Not everyone appreciated that remark.
     
  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, I remember. However, I think no match reports were addressed; only the stats were provided. If he had access to them, why not summarize them?
     
  9. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    While I agree that Cruijff was still (reasonably) great until 79/80 But it did not mean Cruijjf of 79-80 was "betetr" than Pele at 73-77 per se ...

    Pele was regarded as the BEST ever in NASL all time (in stats at least)

    ====== Games = Goals = Assists = Points
    Pele .........64............37.........30...........104
    Cruijff......59............26.........40...........92
    G.Best.....149...........57.........60..........174

    So Pele 1.63 PPG > Cruijff 1.56PPG > G.Best 1.17 PPG

    In fact both won MVP of NASL once ... and Pele won it in 76 (he was 36yrs old). Beckenbauer also won once there !

    Yr === MVP === Rookie ==== Coach
    1968 John Kowalik Kaizer Motaung Phil Woosnam
    1969 Cirilio Fernandez Cirilio Fernandez Janos Bedl
    1970 Carlos Metidieri Jim Leeker Sal de Rosa
    1971 Carlos Metidieri Randy Horton Ron Newman
    1972 Randy Horton Mike Winter Casey Frankiewicz
    1973 Warren Archibald Kyle Rote, Jr. Al Miller
    1974 Peter Silvester Doug McMillan John Young
    1975 Steve David Chris Bahr John Sewell
    1976 [​IMG] Pelé Steve Pecher Eddie Firmani
    1977 [​IMG] Franz Beckenbauer Jim McAlister Ron Newman
    1978 Mike Flanagan Gary Etherington Tony Waiters
    1979 [​IMG] Johan Cruyff Larry Hulcer Timo Liekoski
    1980 Roger Davies Jeff Durgan Alan Hinton
    1981 Giorgio Chinaglia Joe Morrone, Jr. Willy Roy
    1982 Peter Ward Pedro DeBrito Johnny Giles
    1983 Roberto Cabanas Gregg Thompson Don Popovic
    1984 Steve Zungul Roy Wegerle Ron Newman
     
  10. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    For crying out loud! How deep down your throat are Pelé's balls, James?!!
     
  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina

    In the NASL, Pele played as striker, while both Cruyff and Best played in midfield.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    And he played for the better team... Cruijff wanted to join Cosmos after all but, alongside other issues, the fear existed that their sheer dominance would get an extra injection.

    Very tiring that James always forgets this, because it has been discussed a few times before. No problem to disagree but James always passes by this thing.

    http://www.nasljerseys.com/Rosters/Cosmos_Rosters.htm#1975

    http://www.nasljerseys.com/Rosters/Aztecs_Rosters.htm#1979

    http://www.nasljerseys.com/Rosters/Dips_Rosters.htm#1980
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The article above gives a good impression about his rise in fame (with inevitable questions as whether it is just marketing and hype).

    This one asks, from an American perspective, who can take over the 'crown'.
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...ZlQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CRMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6703,3638397

    There are some articles who asked that question as well, and this one mentioned Baggio (as successor of Van Basten and Maradona).
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...sxOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dRMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6539,4110493
     
  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    who said that? YOU ... again?
    Forget what?
    Position are dependent on team tactics, I thought as a "pro" in football, one should NOT rely on news paper to confirm a player position?

    In a 4 2 3 1 the 3 players named FW behind the main CF, but if they played as 4 5 1 they all are MF ? There are a GREY THIN line in between!

    Tell me are Ozil or Di Maraia a MF or FW at Real? Are Ribery, Robben a MF or FW for their team?
    Pele played like Kaka/Ozil position, and Cruijff/Best played like Riberry/Robben position in tehir team OK? no one played deeper than others depends on the games/opponent

    Deep down, Pele's stats are there to say he was still among the top players at older age (just liek Cruijff)
     
  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    you want some?

    It's NOT about Pele or Maradona or Cruijff .... but this is "legends" thread

    Most young people lacked info and we are here to learn/ share from/to each other
    ... LIKE it or NOT ... take it or leave it
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Did you ever watch any games?

    Pele played as half FW half playnaker (a la Totti, Ozil, Kaka ... ) behind Giorgio Chinaglia (as main striker)

    While I agree the NY cosmos was a better team than Aztec, I just listed out Pele's affection to his team and once was best player in NASL over 2 and half seasons with them.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I was searching in the public archive over here and I found many references. Many from Spain and/or Italy who expressed the same view as yours. However, also some others had it. Examples of what I found:

    Frank Arnesen on 20-03-1976, who had played a few good games for Ajax. His work-rate and skill led to statements as "new Cruijff" and "better as Cruijff". He said though:
    "Of course I played well against FC Amsterdam but it has no base to create a comparison with Cruijff. That one is at the moment the best player in the world, he can really do anything with a ball. How can they say that I can become the successor? Too mindless to even discuss."
    http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:011199988:mpeg21:p037:a0882

    Over PM you showed me some (USA) newspaper articles of his farewell game. German quality newspaper 'Die Welt' wrote: "The best football player in the world (the verdict of experts about Johan Cruijff) had to say farewell with a debacle." That coincides with what you provided me.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Welt
    http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010620973:mpeg21:p009:a0271
    [this statement is noted by various independent sources, also noting longer remarks]

    Hard to find statements like that about Zico before 1980, although it was already noted in 1975-76 that Pelé designated him as his successor etc. (and that Zico was the best paid player in Brazil since 1976).
     
  18. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Before and after. But as I pointed out several times in the past: outside of Brazil Zico never received that type of recognition.
     
  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Did you take this from the FIFA website?

    I have come across many years ago an interview at FIFA's site which stated this:

    Could you compare Maradona and Zico, since you had to mark both ?
    "Well, I'd say that Maradona was more individualistic, and practically all of their play was channelled through him. Zico, in contrast, was more of a team player. He brought his team-mates into play, so I'd consider him to be a more complete player. But Maradona was more decisive, because when he'd spring into attack, he could win a match all by himself. That was shown in the 1986 World Cup, which he won all by himself."

    So was it more difficult to mark Maradona than Zico?
    "It was more difficult to mark Maradona than Zico, there is no doubt about that, because he was the kind of player who ran straight at his opponent. He'd get the ball and drive straight at his marker. So he was more difficult. Zico was more of a team player."
     
  20. John Baldessari

    Mar 21, 2015
    [​IMG]

    I think this will be a good fit in this thread as it covers some of the same years. It is the winners of the Guerin Sportivo publication voted by 96 voters, most of which were Italian based (30 I believe). It is stolen from @Vegan10 from his Guerin Sportivo Thread here:
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...-player-of-the-year-awards-1979-1986.2019142/

    The list on the top has Michel Platini listed as their best for 1985. He will post the results of the 1986 edition so stay tuned.

    ~John
     
  21. Metropolitan

    Metropolitan Member

    Sep 5, 2005
    Paris
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Country:
    France
    Another level is all relative. If instead of the headbutt, Zidane would have won the final against Italy (even at the shotouts), I can bet you no one here would discuss about putting him in the same category as Pelé and Maradona.

    But he didn't. So he's not there, and rightfully so. Only one game, 90 minutes of a player's carreer, can change everything.
     
  22. Louis Soccer

    Louis Soccer New Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Apr 17, 2017
    PERFOMANCE EN WORLD CUP
    Maradona 1986 vs Zico 1982 vs Platini 1982
    GOALS
    Zico, 5 games, 4 goals = 0.80 goal per game
    Maradona,7 games, 5 goals = 0.71 goal per game
    Platini, 5 games, 2 goals = 0.40 goal per game

    ASSIST
    Zico, 5 games, 4 assist= 0.80 assist per game
    Maradona,7 games, 5 assits = 0.71 assist per game
    Platini, 5 games, 2 assist= 0.40 assist per game

    PASSES
    Zico, 46.2 per game, passing accuracy 87.3%
    Platini, 51.7 per game, passing accuracy 85.7%
    Maradona, 37.5 per game, passing accuracy 79.8%

    DRIBBLES
    Maradona, 55 = 7.9 per game
    Platini, 18 = 3.4 per game
    Zico, 7 = 1.7 per game

    TACKLES
    Maradona, 11 = 1.6 per game
    Platini, 8 = 1.5 per game
    Zico, 1 = 0.2 per game

    CHANCES CREATED
    Maradona, 27/7 = 3.9 per game
    Zico, 17/5 = 3.4 per game
    Platini, 15/5.3 = 2.8 per game

    RESULTS
    Goals: 1. Zico/Maradona, 3. Platini
    Assits: 1. Zico/Maradona, 3. Platini
    Passes: 1. Zico, 2. Platini 3. Maradona
    Dribbles: 1. Maradona, 2.Platini, 3.Zico
    Tackles: 1. Maradona, 2. Platini 3.Zico
    Chances Created: 1. Maradona 2. Zico, 3.Platini

    Maradona: 5, 0,1
    Zico, 3, 1, 2
    Platini, 0,
     

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