Platini va Maradons vs Zico

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Gregoire, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I understand, but you were using only one source, which only had between 18-20 journalists that contributed at that time. Once El Grafico began conducting polls in 1980, they used over 100 reporters in South Americas player of the year. And when they did, only for 1982 did Zico receive first place honors. And it was impossible for Diego to make any claims of being in such a discussion between 1976 and 1977 because he debuted in the first division in October of '76 at the age of 15 and was 16 years old throughout 1977. Once he set his mark in the world game (1979), it was hard to knock him off. Moreover, there is not one newspaper/magazine source outside of Brazil that I have found from that time period that claims Zico was the best player in the game. If you have any please provide it. During Zico’s generation, Cruyff, Keegan, Rummenigge, Maradona and Platini all received at one point or the other worldwide claim as being the best in the world, but I never heard Zico obtain that recognition.
     
  2. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    One correction on the 1983 year in El Grafico for the top European performers that you cited in the link below: I was able to find the source recently and El Grafico did not use over 100 reporters for that poll, but around 20+ and all were Europeans. The poll was conducted in the end of 1983.

    As for 1980 in South America, the margin between first and 2nd place was pretty big when the votes came in from 100 journalists in El Grafico. In 1981 the race was tighter.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Do you happen to have all polls? That would be great.

    By who was Keegan considered as best of the world during the late 70s?
     
  4. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Kubala. Although he had Maradona right there with him according to some interviews I read in the very late 1970s and early 1980. But apart from the personal awards and some few opinions from people like Kubala, Keegan was the least mentioned amongst managers/players and journalists for the crown for the world's best.

    In regards to the polls: I think I have the 1979 Guerin rankings in detail (have to check again); I have El Mundo 1979; 1980 El Grafico; 1981 El Grafico (which I provided already); 1982 El Grafico. The 1983 El Grafico info I did not bring back with me, but have read it and confirmed what I mentioned before. When I return to Buenos Aires I will pick it up and provide you the info in detail. I know about the Guerin poll of 34 reporters in 1981 but I don't have the details of the results in points nor who voted. I have the 1979 Brazilian player of the year results and 1981 too. I may have some more polls but I can't think of them right now. I will post what I have when I get the chance.
     
  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Here was the 1980 El Grafico South America awards:
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    100 reporters voted in 1980 for El Grafico. First place votes counted for 5 points.
     
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  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting that Falcao was a few places and quite a points above Toninho Cerezo, as Cerezo won the Bola de Ouro that year (Falcao the year before) and I think I noted a while ago that from appearance data it seems Cerezo had become more of a first choice for Brazil in 1980 (in the days before both were chosen together).

    Seems like Socrates was mostly there or thereabouts in the El Grafico polls in the early 80's, but not close to Zico and Maradona and also behind a couple from smaller nations (eg Romero in 1980). He was clearly a star of the game - it's impossible to say if Zico didn't exist whether his votes would been more favourable I suppose (if he'd have taken some of Zico's first place votes when in fact he was put 3rd or 4th behind a player of a smaller nation).

    I'm assuming Ossie Ardiles, Mario Kempes and other foreign-based players were not eligible.
     
  7. Santista1962

    Santista1962 Red Card

    Sep 9, 2011
    Club:
    Santos FC
    FYI Polls coming from El Grafico, El Pais and all that trash is worth jack. In Brazil, we have our own rankings. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure that most people here don't even know the fore mentioned rewards.
     
  8. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Well said. This is what I was thinking about. When James said he "is sure" that up to 1981 Zico was considered better than Maradona, I remembered what I read in all those articles you posted in some other thread, none of them ever putting Zico ahead of Maradona in terms of skills. Furthermore, looking at the SAPotY awards seems to support this, since once Maradona rose to stardom he took two first places and a second place (in the case of the latter, he did win the El Gráfico poll though). Unfortunately for Maradona, the 1982 WC and the following two season in Spain were more negative than positive and loaded with misfortune imo.
     
  9. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Bola de Ouro awards relate only to the Brasileirao I understand. In 1980 Falcao also led Internacional to the final of the Libertadores. Maybe his performance there has to do with it.
    Anyways, notice that Argentine Footballer of the Year, for instance, does not always coincide with the SAPotY award either. Bochini in 1983 was AFotY and was not in the top10 for SAPotY (while Fillol and Gareca were), Marcico was the 1984 AFotY and ranked 8th in SA behind Fillol, Bochini, Gareca and Burruchaga.
     
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  10. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Here's the 1982 South American rankings of El Grafico:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (104 journalists voted in this year)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Note: Falcao, Ardiles, Bertoni and Gilberto were ineligible due to playing already abroad.

    Same criteria was used: 5 points for each first place vote.
     
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  11. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    That's correct. El Mundo in 1982 did however include players that were already abroad like Falcao.
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    James must have forgotten what was transpiring at that time and how the world viewed these players. In that Zico/Maradona thread, he stated at one point after all the info that was provided something along these lines: "no wonder Maradona was always mentioned with Pele..." something like that. I think if he read that thread again, he would not make those claims.

    About the 1980 El Mundo voting: I didn't find the final results in points, but I do have the 1979 results in detail and will post it soon.
     
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  13. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Here's a copy of an article I found in the Argentinian newspaper of La Nacion about the 1979 El Mundo South American rankings: [​IMG]

    It's not the best copy so I will write down the details.

    A panel of 18 journalists from South America voted in the Venezuelan newspaper and the final results were:

    1. Maradona 80 points
    2. Romero 40 points
    3. Falcao 29 points
    4. Fillol 26 points
    5. Zico 15 points
    6. Morena 13 points
    7. Caszely 11 points
    8. Passarella 9 points
    9. Kempes 9 points
    10. Ramon Diaz 7 points
    11. Elias Figueroa 5 points
    12. Chumpitaz 4 points
    13. Isasi 4 points
    14. Talavera 3 points
    15. Morel 3 points
    16. Sanchez 2 points
    Bochini 2 points
    Amaral 2 points
    Dinamita 2 points
    20. Jorge Gonzalez 1 point
    Kiesse 1 point
    Galindo 1 point

    It does not mention the names of the people who voted.

    El Grafico started their polls in 1980 and discontinued around 1984.
     
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  14. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    The other source of El Mundo had these top 3 for 1982:
    1. Zico 78 points
    2. Falcao 48 points
    3. Maradona 31 points
    http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1983/07/29/pagina-19/1092672/pdf.html?search=zico
    Apparently 20 journalists from South America voted in El Mundo this year.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks for all that info.

    Would be good to also know the points of other polls (like the one of Guerin Sportivo).

    Probably both El Grafico and their Brazilian counterparts adopted some particularism (see voting population). So to know it from various different sources would give insight I think.

    That has obviously something to do with it although no one really shined in that particular tournament (it is debatable whether Rummenigge was the best player of euro80 - certainly not in output). So for 1980 no footballer wins it with a landslide (and I noticed the absence of footballers of smaller nations like Ceulemans and Van Moer who did very well that year...).

    [That Guerin Sportivo poll mentioned the 'votes' and not 'points']

    The same is of course true for the Youth World Cup a year before, which was the second edition and heavily hyped and marketed by the FIFA (Havelange rose to power thanks to various promises and the instalment of a Youth World Cup was one of those promises he made in his campaign). It is difficult to deny that this was an advantage Maradona enjoyed although he had of course also the level to back it up.
     
  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I'm searching for the 1979 Guerin poll, which I think I have, but I don't think I have the others.
     
  17. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Unfortunately I can't find it at the moment, but I came across a poll that I was unfamiliar with of 1979 from Sweden. It's called Idrotsbladett, sports newspaper from Stockholm, which initiated in 1947. It ranked all athletes from any sport using reporters from 36 countries. It ranked men and women separately. From football only 2 players made the list: Keegan and Maradona.

    Here's the list (source: El Grafico):
    [​IMG]
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the google archive some good stuff is available.

    The England-Argentina 1980 game, where it is claimed that he is eyeing for the throne

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...gNOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mY4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2646,2478171

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...ANOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mY4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6526,2812442


    Is he a hype or is it true, asks this article? (associated press)
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...gNOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mY4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3097,3248426


    And two articles mentioning/discussing his decline and fitness level (1990 & 1991)
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...cBUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WpADAAAAIBAJ&pg=5408,2214375

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...DsFUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VZADAAAAIBAJ&pg=5683,696120

    [second one originally appeared in the New York Times]

    Good stuff to scan through (esp the quotes by Maradona himself and others)
     
  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    But James, this is not necessarily true. I'm aware of only two sources during those years that rated them for the South American player of the year: El Mundo and El Grafico. Zico won the awards in El Mundo in 1977, 1981, 1982 and in El Grafico in 1982. Maradona won the awards in El Mundo in 1979, 1980 and for El Grafico in 1980 and 1981. They were even in total of awards earned (4).
     
  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Thanks, will check it out.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Assuming that Zico his peak was broadly between 1974 and 1984, which players were considered as among the best in the world according to what you think/saw?

    You mentioned Cruijff, Rummenigge, Platini and Keegan besides Maradona. What was their respective time span do you think? Any other players who were seen as legit contenders between 1974 and 1984?
    You already said in the past that Platini only came in the picture in 1983, when he was for the first time discussed as the best player in the world or one of the few best around (in your view).


    Here some two SI articles you maybe saw before:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125629/1/index.htm

    [this one clearly puts Zico next to Maradona in 1982]

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1136906/index.htm

    [this one is a bit one sided and mentions his decline, 1990]
     
  22. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
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  23. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I had forgotten to add the rest of the panel of journalists that voted (100 in total):
    [​IMG]
    Note: Pele voted as a special guest in 1980. The article states that the winner (Maradona) received 89 first place votes, 8 2nd place votes, 2 third place votes and 1 fourth place vote.
     
  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    During that period, other than what's mentioned, the players that come to mind were: Beckenbauer, Kempes, Rensenbrink, perhaps some defenders like the Chilean Figueroa...I'm probably forgetting some others as well. But from 1974-1978, Cruyff was universally viewed generally as the best.

    In the United States, Beckenbauer was viewed as one of the best, if not the best around 1977. I own an article dated July 1977 which says, "Beckenbauer might be the world's greatest player. He's certainly one of the two or three greatest."

    In Glanville's book, The Story of the World Cup, he states in his 1974 preview of the final this: "Beckenbauer against Cruyff, unquestionably the game's greatest players now Pele had gone".

    The time span of Cruyff's fame as being hailed as the best or amongst the very best by some reports lasted around until 1980, from what I've read; Platini from 1983-1986; Rummenigge from 1980 to some part in 83; Keegan during his Ballon d'Ors; Maradona from 79-83 and then from 85-90 and even up to his ban in early 1991 was viewed by many as the best: his return almost two years later was viewed by some in the press as the return of the best player in the game and the best player of the past 15 years.
     
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  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Well note that:
    1- the period I mentioned 77-82
    2- Winning 2 times as best a piece is one thing ( I agreed ) but taking an average points (being in TOP3, TOP10 of those years) is another PLUS for Zico over Maradona ( again Zico was at his peak while Maradona was on the rising)

    It was kinda misleading ... and it was like people might say Keegan / Rummenigge with 2 ballon dors would be taken as they were "better " than Zidane or Rivaldo or Ronaldinho with 1 ballo Dor.
     

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