Stolen from another site . . . KFTM. Multi-use field. Blue Kicker places ball on wrong spot a couple of yard back. Misses kick. As next kicker places ball on actual mark, blue kicker's coach notices where it was taken and screams it has to be retaken. What next? (A) Referee can change mind as next kick hasn't taken place, and allow blue kicker to retake from right spot. or (B) Once the R allowed the kick to be taken from the wrong spot, that put the ball in play (or the equivalent for KFTM purposes) such that it is too late to fix. Would your answer be the same if it was a PK?
The problem with not getting it right the first time is if he makes it then he’s had two opportunities to score. On the contrary, if it was from the wrong spot and he did score, none of us would hesitate in making him take it again. I think the player probably needs to retake the first shot.
I'd hate to be that referee. I'm going to go with a retake since a requirement for a legal penalty kick is the ball being on the penalty mark and play hasn't "restarted". I don't see any reason why this wouldn't also apply to KFTM.
KFTM is easily fixable. Retake PK out of play, still fixable. Retake PK saved back into play. Run and hide
When you're on a multi-sport field, it's a good idea to verbalize during check-in that "We are playing the [color] lines today." Players hear it, crew hears it, risk of brain cramp mitigated.
As Pittsburgh ref said, the best is to not let this happen. But we all know the brain can freeze, especially as we get tired. I seem to be on an island on thinking this is not fixable. I think we look at it first as a PK. The referee makes a factual error in determining where the penalty mark is. The referee permits the PK to be taken from that spot--and the kicker puts the ball into play. As we all know, the referee may not change a decision if play has restarted. I'm hard pressed to argue that play has not restarted on the PK when the full PK ceremony has taken place with the permission of the referee. And it seems to me that the answer is the same for a KFTM. Once the kick is actually taken with the referee's permission, it seems to me that it is too late under Law 5 to go back and re-do it. Nor am I convinced that it is more fair to do so. It's a horrible screw up, but I'm not convinced that a second bite makes it better. The other team survived the first PK, which was not that much different from a proper PK. In a league with protests, I think there is a viable protest by the team that missed the kick if it is not retaken (mistake of law in taking the kick from the wrong place, if the referee acknowledges that factually), and I think there is a viable protest for the other team if it is retaken (making a change to a decision after the ball was put into play). Not all mistakes have a solution under the LOTG.
I will note that all three books agree that for a penalty kick (and, therefore, also for KFTPM), the ball must be placed on the penalty mark spot. It does not say 'at the penalty spot or anywhere at least 12 yards from the goal.' However, I'm agreeing with socal lurker that Law 14 also specifically states that "the ball is in play when it is kicked and clearly moves." We don't have the right to change the restart after the ball is back in play. Law 5 says "The referee may not change a decision on realizing that it Is incorrect or on the advice of another match official if play has restarted...." I just don't see a way to overcome that. Too bad, so sad, but I will also note that, in the original post, the kicker placed the ball, not the referee. Yes, the referee, of course, should have verified that the position was correct. And, of course, we are also assuming here, at least for the sake of argument, that the position was indeed incorrect. Again, Law 5 "Decisions will be made to the best of the referee's ability according to the Laws of the Game and the spirit of the game and will be based on the opinion of the referee..." In other words, in this situation it was the opinion of the referee that the place where the blue player placed the ball was the correct mark. Therefore, ITOOTR and play has been restarted. Yes, I had this situation happen, high school playoff game, KFTPM, rough field in a relatively rural area, dirt rather than grass in most of the goal area, several lines of different colors, low light, home team kicking first. When she missed, the varsity boys coach (legally only a spectator) objected that the kick was taken from the wrong location. At that point, there was no way that I was going to march off 12 yards to check, assuming that my steps were roughly accurate (what do you do if you step it off and there is no mark where you stop?) and I sure didn't have a tape measure in my bag. I ignored him. We took all of the rest of the kicks from the same spot and the home team ended up winning.
Disagree completely. The kick was not properly taken, the ball was not properly in play. Would you allow a goal on a kickoff that enters the net, taken from the near edge of the circle instead of the center, because you dozed off and blew for the start? Of course not. Retake.
I'm with Bubba on this one. I think of this scenario to those times when players attempt to take quick free kicks and the ball is moving. Has the ball been played? Yes. But an infraction occurred, so we remedy this by making the kick be retaken, with the ball stationary.
Exactly. What do you do if a player puts the ball outside the corner are and kicks a corner? Same with gk outside the six. Same with dfk where the team quickly takes it well away from where you want it to be. It feels funny because of the ceremonial nature, but the principle is the same. The kick didn’t happen.
If the same field is used for multiple sports, could a sign could be placed and state what color lines are for what sport?
If only some were that easy. a local private College/HS field is multipurpose turf. Football lines are white, soccer black, Lax yellow, and field hockey red. Straight forward until you notice that for soccer, the half line is actually white, the center circle is red, the boundary lines are black, and all four colors have some sort of mark or hash within the penalty area. ETA - just looked at a photo of the field- 120 yds for soccer. penalty mark is in black on the 2 yard line for football, white hash mark for extra points/conversions is at the 3 yard line.
I'm going back and forth on this one. But let's say during a game your assistant flags attacker for OS, ball ends up 10 yds. further up field where it should be and kicker takes a quick kick from there. The ball has been kicked, and moved, but we can call it back in this situation because the kick was not taken at the proper placement of the field on advice from your AR. * So can the same philosophy apply here? All that I read about FK's, PK's and KFTM says "the ball must be placed ..." but I don't see anything about what to do IF the kick is taken from the wrong spot. The LOTG appear not to punish a kick taken from the wrong spot, unlike how TI's are dealt with. So I'm saying we can redo, as long as the next kicker has not taken his turn. I'll probably have a "fake" conference with my AR so as to imply it was on his advice rather than going off what the coach pointed out. *(although I could not find support for this in the LOTG)
A PROPER kick didn't happen. I'm down with this. man, I can't imagine brain farting on that one. I trhive on lines and spots and marks and where things are supposed to be. Now that I've said that, I'm BOUND to jack up my GV match this afternoon. YIPEE!
The LOTG are mostly silent on how to fix things that WE mess up as they assume we will not mess them up. I raised a similar question some years ago on the board and was rather thoroughly thrashed for stating the same thing, that there is no solution under the LOTG even though we could come up with very viable options, none were supported under the LOTG just as there is no specific remedy here. Where do we become involved in matters of law to the players? A player is expected to know and follow the LOTG. If we follow black and white letter of the LOTG it doesn't say who places the ball, only that it is stationary on the penalty mark. Black and white if they place it incorrectly and take the kick, the kick should be recorded as missed and the kicker cautioned. If we told them to place it incorrectly then it's on us so if we allow them to place it on their own incorrectly, are we to stop them and make them move it? The LOTG do not tell us to do that (or not to do that) but we do. If the same player were to place the ball on the top of the goal area I am sure we all would have them move it back to the mark so if they place it anywhere else we should do the same. Incorrect placement on a PK is not trifling (as say taking a throw in a few yards from where the ball crossed the touch line) so if we told them where to place it and that was wrong we might be able to bend the laws enough BEFORE another kick is taken to retake the kick as it was not properly placed so even though we whistled for the kick to be taken (tacit approval that all is correct?) it was not properly put into play. We must be careful in stating the kick was not properly taken as Law 10 clearly states: and that is why I say we may be able to bend (contort?) the laws enough to retake if we told them the incorrect placement. In reality no issue on the games I do I believe most would rather have an end to the match instead of a suspended or abandoned one if for no other reason the protest process would be cleaner than figuring out what to do with an unfinished mess. Professional level level? Not sure except to know they will likely never have to deal with multiple lines and marks so messing it up becomes extremely hard. Key as mentioned is DFU - I have always handed the ball to the kicker (thus identifying them as the kicker) and they place it on the mark. I go further and point to the mark when I hand the ball to them also saying "place the ball anywhere on the mark, the kick will be on the whistle" and on multiple sport fields I make it a point with my crew on pregame to step it off just for further verification that the mark we think it is - is THE mark.
camconcay, my only quibble is with the application of the quoted section of Law 10. In the original post, the "offence" was committed before the referee signaled for the kick to be taken, i.e. placing the ball on a spot other than the actual penalty mark. As you say, the Laws assume that the referee doesn't make a mistake. Law 5.2 "The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final." So, by the Law, if the referee says that the score was 2-0 and every coach and player swears that it was 0-2, the score is still 2-0. In this case, the referee's decision was that the player had correctly placed the ball for the kick, even though one coach decided/pointed out that was not the "correct" mark. The kick was not taken improperly because, ITOOTR, that was the correct placement, at least for that kick.
Be that as it may, I have no doubt which curative approach I would rather defend to the players, the coaches, and an appeal board. And are you honestly telling us you would let a successful PK/KFTM count that had been taken from several feet in front of the mark?
Daring to speak for @Law5 , what we are saying is that it is a %#@# up that is too late to fix. For those that want to re-do, is that also going to be your view when the sneaky kicker takes it too close and misses, and immediately points out the error and demands to retake the kick? It is exactly the same error--it just feels different. I've long since given up basing my decisions on defending them to coaches or players--though I'm not I would be more comfortable telling the GK who just made a save that his save didn't count than telling the kicker who put the ball in the wrong place that it was too late to change the decision after he missed. The appeal board is a very different analysis--and the lack of clarity here makes it impossible to determine what an appeal board might say. An appeal board can only correct a mistake of law, not a mistake of fact. If the referee (albeit incorrectly) determined the ball was on the mark before the PK or KFTM, that sure sounds like a mistake in determining a fact, not a mistake of law--the referee did not decide to do PKs at 13 yards today. But if the referee permits the kick to be re-taken, the appeals board is faced with a question of law: when was it too late for the R to change his mind about whether the ball was properly placed? In any event, this is all an avoidable, inexcusable cluster @$%@#$ that should never happen.
I have two questions. 1. Is a kick that is made from the incorrect position in play? Because if it’s not, then the restart has not occurred. I think there are several analogous situations that support this sentiment that a kick taken from the wrong position is not in play. 2. In the OP, why is ref’s decision (that he can’t go back on because the restart occurred) the position of the ball? Wasn’t the refs decision in the OP to Allow the kick? In that case, that decision is still fixable as long as you haven’t restarted again after that.
I believe the matter of law is that if we allow the kick then it can not be retaken. As @Law5 said the offence is the incorrect placement and if we whistle for the kick we are saying all is well. Of note, the game is stopped when we decide it is stopped, not when we actually blow the whistle so in the case of a free kick that a player kicks but we see the ball is not stationary, we know immediately that is not OK so even if they kick the ball and it clearly moves - we decided to not allow that before they did so (when we saw it not stationary) . If we DO allow it to go we still can consider it trifling. A PK is not trifling, especially the ball placement. Yes, the decision was to blow the whistle for the ceremonial restart, thus agreeing that all was well to do so. When the ball was kicked and clearly moved forward the ball was in play and the decision is not correctable.
Question directed at all not just @socal lurker or @Law5 Why would allowing a kicker that has taken a kick in KFTPM to kick again before every other eligible kicker has taken a kick be correctable but this not? And if the referee (crew) realizes this happened (either kick from the wrong location or kicker kicking again before eligible) before the kicks were completed, say immediately after that "wrong" kick - what do we do?
I’ve come to one conclusion after reading all this. This is a mistake so bad you cannot rectify the situation. Similar to allowing subs on early then a fight occurs. The laws cannot help you.
I agree this is a cluster of epic proportions. Doesn't Law 18 prescribe (!), though, that we re-take the kick? A kick from the wrong spot isn't what was intended, so even if the player mis-placed, and we mis-signalled, the Game needs that kick to be redone. At any rate, I just realized, I decided before the kick that I was going to stop proceedings because of the incorrect spot, notwithstanding the fact my signal followed said kick.