I don't think the Union are moving, but the fallacy in the argument "they've invested in academies and X, Y and Z" is poking me in the eye. Ever try and sell a house? You can sell it "as is" or you slap some paint on it, re-do the bathroom and tile and try to get a little more out of the sale. The interesting part of the article wasn't the 10 years/ low attendance thing, it was the Keystone buying out the Buccini/Pollin group. Who are also members of KSG. That's a dividend. They didn't buy them at a loss, B/P recovered their investment and now the U have a greater asset to sell as part of the club. Couple million on an academy for a club that's appreciated 400% in 10 years, yeah right, they couldn't possibly walk from that.
I don’t think a team looking to move spends $3.5m a year developing players. I think an owner looking to sell on would do that. The Union are worth what Sugarman eventually cashed out with because of where it’s located. He can’t sell for, say, $300m if the new owner is moving to Charlotte. Keeping aside the fact MLS would not want that market trade, I agree that the whole package they have down there makes this a very attractive target for someone looking at mls.
They aren’t moving, but knowing the option is there to buy out the lease is interesting either way... if the opportunity ever presents itself the Union aren’t necessarily stuck in Chester... for instance if Lurie decides he wants a new stadium or major renovations and wants more dates for the Linc and/or the new stadium all the sudden the Union is maybe a more appealing investment option, than if they were tied to Chester.
They could revisit the talks with Villanova using the stadium for Football. Maybe add a Rugby team (MLR if it begins to take off). Maybe try to get an MLL team to fill some summer dates as well. Look into a Rugby League Team and seek entry into the English league like the Toronto Wolf Pack have done? Those are ideas* of ways to help fill dates in Chester and use the stadium if they ever get a deeper pocketed ownership group that wants a stadium closer to or in Philly. *I never said any of these are viable or good ideas
I mean assuming the hypothetical new owner has a lot of cash to burn and does the good guy move to not leave Chester totally in the cold they could easily keep Union operations and training in Chester do USL and Women’s Team combo at Talen, even open up a PDL shop and bring the academy down that way more often. If they wanted to expand outside soccer bubble how about outdoor lacrosse and Rugby? Doesn’t take too much creativity to find stuff to fill the dates the Union leave vacant... (lower amounts of people I guess, but really USL and NWSL alone is probably more event dates than the stadium has already)
I don't see them moving TBH. Other than having limited things around the stadium and some parking lot stuff I really don't mind the location. But if in 10-15 years the team/league is at a point where 18,500 isn't nearly enough, then you either expand or move. But currently thats not the case. Hopefully getting some winning years will correct that. I live in Montoco so whether its in the city vs Chester i'm driving either way and getting to Chester is relatively easy. Would be great to have more public trans options though.
Just to clarify, Sugarman won’t relo the team. The new owners would have that option. Academy checks a lot of boxes. Short term, hey maybe we get a role player or two for the nonbudget roster! Long term, looks like an asset (what other real estate buy/sell touts local schools). Our feelings don’t matter at all. The potential owners nor the current group do not give a fart in a breeze about your/our feelings re:commute time to Chester, paved or unpacked lots, public transportation, that’s projecting on businessmen your feelings. Other minor leagues, especially women’s soccer, is a nonstarter as main tenants. Besides those leagues all being money losers to begin with, you’re probably underwater on stadium operations. Costs more to even open the building for a crowd of a couple thousand just on the insurance premiums. They’d never make that at the gate week in and out. If the Union move out of the area (helllooooo Raleigh Durham!), it’ll be like one of those pics of Olympic villages in Sarajevo or Sochi a few years on.
Yeah, I agree, the only way the league would agree on a shared stadium with Temple is if the Union were equal partners with Temple, not a secondary tenant. I only mentioned it because the only place the Union might even condsider moving to from Chester is a to a stadium in the city because that is the leagues strongly preferred option for new teams. There would no public money available for such a stadium, and the Union couldn't afford to build their own, so they would have to partner with another stadium that was already in the works in the city, and the only one that came to mind was Temple. If Philadelphia were getting a brand new team in the current rounds of expansion, I could see a joint venture with Temple because of the location and the potential cost savings compared to a new stadium of their own in the city. The access to mass transit in a gentrifying neighborhood full of students and millennials is Garber's perfect scenario for a new stadium site if the scheduling conflicts can be worked around. College football is one of the easiest sports to share with because all the dates are known in advance (no home playoff games like NYCFC ran into with the Yankees), there are only 6 home games a year, and the seasons only overlap for 2-3 months.
I officially hate this conversation.. feels like I spent all day arguing with people on Twitter about the click bait brotherly game article that spun out of the DeGeorge story. People actually think MLS would bail on the Philly market.
In all seriousness, no. I don’t think The MLS would bail on Philly. Would they San Jose us where we get bought and Colts/Brown’d out of town but expansioned back in? Maybe, feels longer than 10-1. If it meant the overall partnership group got stronger and they secured other markets, I wouldn’t bet against what they wouldn’t do.
San Joseing us I think is even a longer shot than straight up relocation. Sugarman doesn’t have ambition to spend here, he certainly doesn’t have the ambition to move the team and get a stadium built elsewhere... unless he somehow got an agreement to move them in as a second Chicago team his union related assets are going to appreciate faster in Philly with less investment than In any other available market. Anyone looking to buy off of Sugarman is going to be in the same boat... even if they are willing to spend you aren’t going to move anywhere with more potential.
I see the SJ or Chivas options as being even more remote. I don't think this area would go for that. There is a stadium here along with other assets. It would be easier for MLS to find a buyer for those as is than it would be to get a brand new owner who'd pay north of $200m for an expansion fee and then build all the infrastructure back up. I think a stadium anywhere in the city is a tough sell now. If the league left Philly, I do not think the city or state would touch MLS as it effectively leaves Chester in about the worst spot possible. That would also make Philly the only one of the top 10 markets without a team. This is also a tough town to break into so a failed team would leave a significant mark. If MLS were to leave Philly, and again I think its a crazy notion, I think its more or less permanent. The best possible outcome here is finding a way to get a city stadium built, leaving the training facilities in Chester while developing the rest of the campus, and figuring out a way to transition the stadium site in chester to either a new use altogether or leaving it available for the USL, NWSL, and other events/concerts. That written, I really do not think the location is a killer. It is a very easy excuse when the team is dreadful, but we've packed the house to a point expansion was a legitimate discussion. A good team on the field consistently changes the conversation significantly. Its very easy for MLS to look at what's going on here and saying the market isn't failing the Union, the Union are failing the market. There was a time when the sales people complained that it only had less than a 1000 tickets it could sell for any game given the STH, partial plans, advance sales, and holds they needed for the league and away fans. Let's also consider the cost of going north. I can easily see $300m as the low number for a new stadium. There would be no public money. That's tough to fund.
I agree with this, but I also don't see the Chester location ever drawing crowds like Seattle, Atlanta, and Toronto, which is probably the league's long term vision for all its teams. The Union would probably need to move closer/into the city to keep up the Joneses if this becomes the standard for the league, but Chester meets their needs for the foreseeable future as this a long way off.
Should also be noted that Harrah's is struggling too. With the new Casino's opening in the burbs and in the city proper, Harrah's has been hurting. We all know that IF the Union can build a consistent contender that fans will fill the stadium. The location, while not ideal for MLS' league offices, isn't the reason for the Union's struggles at the gate.
Careful with your comparisons. I'll grant you Toronto, who IMHO have the best fans in the league since they were supported very well even when they were repeatedly the worst team in the league. Seattle has had great performance on the field - remember the anguish just before they fired Sigi because they were slipping to mid-table? Atlanta is brand new. Give them a few losing seasons and see what their attendance is.
That's the vision now, but when the Union came about it was just getting a SSS that was high priority. We're more akin to the RSLs and Chicago Fires of the league. Now, if Jeffrey Lurie was interested in an MLS team ...
I agree with all of that. The point I was trying to make is that the Union would probably draw 20-25K for league matches in Chester if they had a sustained run of success like Seattle, but I don't ever see 45,000 people regularly making the trek to Talen regardless of how good they are.
someone high up in the Union once said to me "if Philly is such a great soccer market, why did it take a guy from New York to bring it a team?"
There is something to this, though I also think the fact Temple plays at the Linc would complicate a Lurie owned Philly MLS team playing there. The rules in MLS are always the rules until they're not... I hope that person was kicked in the nuts...
Only through the 2019 season at present. A lot will depend on whether or not the Nimby's scupper their plans to build an on campus stadium. I doubt MLS would want the Union to play at the Linc either (though it does have a grass field which is a plus). That would set make it difficult for the league to require future expansion bids to include a SSS/Stadium built with soccer in mind.
I would peg Temple's chances at less than 30% for success. It's why I don't think the Union will ever end up in the city.
I think the Temple Stadium will get done, Nimbys be damned... which honestly makes a Union specific even more of a long shot.... still convinced they will EVENTUALLY share with the eagles. interesting read either way: http://www.phillyvoice.com/what-we-learned-temples-doomed-north-philly-stadium-town-hall/ Temple claims it will really only be used 7 times a year for football... (doubt that part)