lots of comparisons, discussions, arguements are being made on "Messi as the greatest ever", "Messi as the greatest ever second to Maradona" and e..t.c majority (if not all) of football fans will agree that 2014 was the best NT tournament of Messi. so, I will take Messi's performance against the third placed team in the best tournament of Messi. HOLLAND. as a comparison, I will take Pele's game against the third placed team, Portugal 66. explain the difference, who acted better, who performed better. here is Messi vs Netherlands: and Pele vs Portughal: my speech on this: Arguably (if not absolutely), 66 was the worst World cup performance of Brasil, Pele was recoveirng from injury and arguable that was the best World Cup of Portugal. Portugal finished 3rd. Pele was injured, according to this link The Brazilian coach, Feola, panicked. He changed the entire defense, including the goalkeeper. In the attack, he maintained Jairzinho and substituted the other two players. In the midfield, he returned to the formation of the first match, even knowing that Pelé was still recovering from his serious injuries. I did not count or calculate what they have done during the game but it is easy to say that Pele was at least as influential as Messi was against Holland, if not Pele was more influential on that game. watch how did Injured Pele played against 3rd place team with the worst world cup performance of Brazil and then watch how did Messi (not injured) perform against 3rd place team.
Pele was chopped off the tournament in his Portugal game WC66 Messi CHOPPED himself in Holland game WC14 The Common FACTOR: these two WC shared the same term of "controversy" 1- WC66: the world set up everything for England Germany team to win WITHOUT Pele 2- WC14: ADIDAD set up everything for Messi to win WC goldenball
Hmm yes, it is widely accepted that protection for attackers has improved in the past decades (in the same 1966 match also Eusebio received a number of blows) but maybe for some players and type of players more improvements than others? As posted previously: http://www.ncer.edu.au/papers/documents/WPNo46.pdf http://www.ntu.ac.uk/research/document_uploads/85424.pdf Height discrimination in football: http://www.soccerbythenumbers.com/2012/07/height-discrimination-in-football-are.html Even today there is evidence that no uniform protection for players exist. The numbers in this article show great differences between players, even though not every 'foul' is the same (that is the subject of above papers!) or every 'caution' the same. For ex. Hazard is at 11 fouls per yellow 'won' and Alexis at 6 fouls per yellow won. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...more-protection-from-referees-at-Chelsea.html [for what's worth: Messi 2014-15 is at 5 fouls per caution; Messi 2011-12 (scoring peak) at 3 fouls per caution; Messi 2009-10 (absolute number of fouls received peak) at 4 fouls per caution; and Messi 2007-08 (fouls suffered per game peak) at 5 fouls per caution] http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/08/martin-demichelis-arjen-robben-holland-argentina Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Maybe Pelé was a bit unlucky too? On a different day a different kind of protection? Just some thoughts. Cheers.
Good point of Hazard in EPL No comment on Messi number of fouls/caution (since we do not have enough data for others) Pele of 60s (and later Maradona 80s) was the most "fouled" player in history of the game. One could see a similar brief season with R9 in SerieA 98 = unacceptable! (even he possessed the fastest speed ---) Just for fun with the "number" If Messi or Neymar would get average like 5,6 fouls per game (minor contact not counted) then Pele Maradona would get 12+ fouls (or more) - R9 got at least 10 in his serieA98
What is your insistence on calling Messi "kid"? It just proves what I said before that you just seem to diminish what Messi has done.
@PuckVanHeel , ignore protection, ignore difficulty, ignore advantages/disadvantages, ignore everything JUST FOCUS ON: Injured Pele or Messi, who was more influential during the game against the third place team. btw, advantage of Pele: Pele played in a group game while Messi played in semifinal, now it may sound useless but I think a team will try harder and be more serious in semifinal game than they are in group game. it is advantage of Pele.
Sorry for that. I more or less agree with the overall tone of your argument so I don't have a comment about that. It's difficult however to assess a performance without knowing the circumstances.
I said in WC level (or international level) : Pele played like a king while Messi performed like a kid In Barca shirt Of course Messi is a king now
Just look at their NT performance: ======== Pele ====== Messi ====== WC ... 12goals+9ass/14 > 5goals+3ass/14 Copa . .8goals+2ass/6 >> 2goals+2ass/9 Total individual stats: Pele 20goals+11ass/20games >>>>>> Messi 7goals+5ass/23games Total team trophies: 2WCs (full played) +1 Copa final >>>>> Messi 1WC final +1 Copa final Total contribution to team: Pele (100% WC + 86% copa) >>Messi (52% WC + 44% Copa) These are FACTUAL data (and say that I "diminish" Messi or himself?)
Of course, that makes a whole lot of difference (group stage vs SF). Doesn't matter if both teams finished 3rd. Portugal also only needed a tie to go through and even a loss may have put them through. Not to mention that they were up 2 x 0 in 30 mins. The few times Pele' got the ball after he was injured was because he had plenty of space. Probably the Portuguese weren't as worried about him since he was hoping around. Netherlands also played with 5-6 men in the back. That was a dreadful game with dreadful tactics.
ironically thy won Australia (ranked 40+ ) with 3-2 (allowed 2goals ) to Show their vulnerability in defense if the team know how to UNLOCK them! They passed Mexico (ranked 15+) with a diving penalty ... well ... do dreadful for Netherland, not for their opponents at all (note that Mexico came in with some injured players) As said: Brazil 02 would beat this Netherland 2014 with 3-1 easily Brazil 94 would beat them 2-0 Brazil 98 would beat them 2-1 or 2-0
No No No No No ... just 1000 times No. Have you ever not heard of playing according to your opposition and occasion ? Netherlands played much more defensive vs Argentina compared to Australia. And sometimes you just have spectacular plays like Cahill's first goal. A speculative cross with a sensational finish. Not to mention in a competition like the WC, adjustments are frequently made during to competition to correct mistakes. Drawing a conclusion (team A can unlock a defense and team B can't) from a goal scored is again a very shallow and lazy analysis.
Where you got that? in your SPeculation again? Fact said they both have EQUALLY stats (if you said Netherland were defensive and SO WERE Argentina in that "chicken game") Shots: Netherlands 5 Argentina 6 (wow Argentina had ONE more shot ) Corners: Netherlands 4 Argentina 4 Offside: Netherland 4 Argentina 4 Possession: Netherlands 56% Argentina 44% (even less in ball) REAL FACT of the game *as you would not know: Messi NEVER TOUCHED the ball in Netherland box (he was often STOPPED by Vlar and deVrijl before any attempting dribbling into the box) unless you THINK: Vlar + deVrijl = Maldini + Baresi at WC94? or Thuram + Desailly WC98 LOL so? you think Netherland will go attack Brazil 02 or 94? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Stop looking at just stats and watch the games to see how they actually develop. Stats are there to aid what you actually see. Not to be used by itself. Yes they were in a chicken game. Netherlands proved they were extremely dangerous on the counter during the WC. Argentina had to adjust considering they also had lost their second most dangerous offensive thread in Di Maria to injury. Netherlands wasn't in the WC in 2002. They were in 98 and yes they did attack Brazil plenty. In 94 Netherlands were definitely not as defensive as they were in 14 specially in that SF game.
becuase there is NO warrantee for me to see that you DID watch the game ! so I had to bring STATS to show BOTH teams were playing SAFE and CHICKEN equally in that game Both sides were looking for other's MISTAKES *in defnese to win an UGLY 1 goal win= but too bad no mistakes and they had to SETTLE for PSO = that's how the game went - IF YOU WATCHED and UNDERSTOOD the game
I never said Argentina didn't play it safe either. Again the comment is about Australia finding a way to score vs Netherlands while Argentina couldn't. That comparison says absolutely nothing.
so your claime (on ONE SIDED) like Netherlands were playing very defensive = HALF FACT the other half is on Argentina side. Back to the thread here (ridiculous though to compared to pele) Messi FAILED to beat any Nether;and DF and GK to make any positive result in that game = FACT
Now for the info of the "chicken game" Let's take Spain vs Netehrland (similar quality as vs Argentina) MATCH STATS ======Spain--Netherlands Possession 64% --- 36% 90mins Shots ------10----14 On target -----4-----10 Corners ---4------1 Fouls-------5 ---18 They both made 24 shots in a game vs 11 (with Argentina)
I only want to highlight the average # shots (in normal games with attacking mindset) = 20+ a game Even in our last 4 UCL games: Real vs Schake = 42 shots Chelsea vs PSV = 27 shots Arsenal vs Monaco = 24shots Aletico vs Leverkeusen = 21shots Both Argentina and Netherland were "chicken" (to each other) to barely make 11 (<< 50% normal case)
so, dear those who see Messi as the greatest, the greatest second to Maradona or greater than Pele, watch this video and realise how you overrated him when you compared Messi with Pele. Messi did not reach the level which is enough to be compared to Pele. you had better shut your mouth up and compare him with CR7.
Difficult for Messi to exceed Pele Pele very special at all levels World Cup Copa Libertadores domestic league even he only played copa america once and was the most valuable player in 1959 While Messi is probably (or most likely) the greatest player on the history of the club level immediately after Di Stefano and this extraordinary reason why Messi currently among the top ten in the history of the game