Pele vs. Michael Jordan

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by AmericanSalv, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Back to the thread ... like I said Jordan was never "head and shoulder" above everyone in Basket a la Pele in Football:

    [​IMG]

    Jordan's STATS was OVERRATED by American , in FACT it is EVEN BELOW Le Bron (who played for smaller team before, so no rings)

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The difference is Michael Jordan stuck with a mediocre team, the Bulls, until he finally was able to win the championship in 91, I believe. His tears when holding the trophy for the first time says everything about the struggle to overcome better rivals. LeBron James bailed out on a similar mid-table side and chose to go to a team that was already a contender.
     
  3. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Regarding the stats of Jordan vs LeBron, I would not go with totals... LeBron started much younger so he will likely have a longer career and probably reach certain milestones at a younger age too. On top of that Jordan lost practically a whole season due to injury when he was a scoring machine (the 86-87 season; had averaged over 28 points the previous one and came back with over 37 points on average the following one), and then took an almost two season long break when he retired for the first time after the murder of his father. Then another three seasons of inactivity between his Chicago stint and his time in Washington. How much stats ground did he lose right there?
     
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  4. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    And on top of things during the first 6 or seasons of Jordan and his gradually improving Bulls the teams to beat out there were no others than the Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics and later the Detroit Badboys.
     
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  5. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Look guys, I did NOT say Le Bron is better then Jordan, but meant that at least he is one among few could track Jordan stats' quite comfortable ...
     
  6. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I do not follow basketball anymore, even back then I would only watch the key playoff games. But as I understand it from "The Jordan Rules" by Sam Smith, Jordan was asked by the Bulls coaching staff to forgo racking up the stratospheric statistics for the benefit of the team, they told him it was better if other players like Pippen and Paxson got more involved with scoring and passing to increase the chances of winning the elusive championship. Jordan chafed at the idea initially, insulted at the implication that he could not win a championship by himself alone. But in time and especially after Detroit, a team he despised, beat him yet again in 90 did he acknowledged the truth to their Phil Jackson's coaching philosophy. The result was lesser stats for Jordan but also a thorough humiliation of Detroit the following year. The winning pattern would repeat itself in later years against the Knicks under Pat Riley, the Pacers under Larry Bird, and the Utah Jazz of the great Stockton-Malone duo. From watching only the playoffs, the most impressive performance to me was Jordan destroying the freak of nature Shaquille O'Neal for the 96 championship. I don't think LeBron James would be able to do that anywhere close even.
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Wrong Le Bron defense MUCH better than Jordan and Attack at least the same
     
  8. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    First this:
    Then this one:
    This is confusing but I dont even wanna ask...
     
  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Jordan is the much greater player, that's not even worth discussing.
     
  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Greater in term of WHAT? because American said so? like they paid Beckham much higher then Messi and CR7?

    you know NOTHING of Basketball and why I bother to discuss with you?
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    For the INFO (in Play OFF = the best teams vs best players)

    ===============================================
    For your INFO

    NBA Playoffs Stats

    Points Per Game
    LeBron James
    28.2



    Michael Jordan33.4

    Rebounds Per Game
    LeBron James
    8.5


    Michael Jordan6.4



    Assists Per Game
    LeBron James
    6.6


    Michael Jordan5.7

    Steals Per GameLeBron James1.7

    Michael Jordan2.1

    Blocks Per GameLeBron James0.9

    Michael Jordan0.9
     
  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    In terms of being a better player and a far more important player to the history of the sport. They are both Americans, not sure what is your point. Since you love lists published by the media so much, here is a recent one :

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/...Michael+Jordan+%281984-2003%29&photo=30219324

    Jordan is #1, James does not make the top ten.
     
  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    that's like Zidane won BEST EUROPEAN player of ALL TIME last 2006? LOL

    I do NOT mind to say Jordan was INDEED the best player in basketball.
    MY POINT:

    Jordan was NOT head and shoulder above any other stars ... he BARELY made it

    Pele was SUN of morning >>>> other stars like MOON in evening in Football
     
  15. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    That ranking is relatively recent (2012), that's nine seasons into James' career. Jordan by his ninth season was already deemed the greatest of all time.
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    WRONG that's by American hidden agenda marketing to BRING Basketball = bigger taht's all
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Now latest comparison in APPLES to APPLES:

    How LeBron James' Career Actually Stacks Up Against Michael Jordan's
    By Dan Condie, Contributor Jun 22, 2013

    So, given equal looks at every year both men have had in their basketball careers up until their 28th birthdays, here's how the numbers stack up:

    ============LeBron James===== Michael Jordan

    Rookie of the Year-------------- 1-------------------- 1
    All-Star Game appearances ---- 9------------------- 7
    All-Star Game MVP------------- 2------------------- 1
    NBA All-Defensive First Team - 5 ------------------ 4
    All-NBA First Team ------------ 7 -------------------6
    NBA Scoring Champion------1------------------- 5
    NBA Finals appearances ------- 4------------------- 1
    NBA Champion ----------------- 2-------------------1
    NBA Finals MVP ---------------- 2 ------------------1

    Jordan ONLY beat 1 category *champs, while Le Bron beat Jordan in ALL others and he STILL PLAYs


     
  18. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    By 28, Jordan had only played seven seasons in the NBA, against ten by James. Jordan also has an NCAA ring, which James will never achieve. And like I said before, James left Cleveland when he knew he was not going to win anything with the team and went to an already strong team to win championships easily. Jordan stuck through the hard times with the Bulls until he finally took them to the NBA title.
     
  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #644 JamesBH11, May 15, 2014
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
    a guy who NEVER WATCHED basketball and keep on SPECULATING???? Pleeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzz


    For you info , so you do not have to go back and rewatch- so many games

    [​IMG]
    LeBron vs. Michael's Wins Per 48 Minutes by Career Year
     
  20. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    And Jordan and his Bulls won three in a row with the following base team: Paxson/Armstrong - Jordan - Pippen - Grant - Cartwright.
    Then Jordan retired and the Bulls had a rather good regular season in 93-94, but got eliminated by NY in the second round of the playoffs.
    The 94-95 regular season was a bit worse than the previous one, without Jordan again except for the last few games when he decided to return. This season the Bulls dont count on Horace Grant either as he had left to play with Shaq and Penny in Orlando. The team is eliminated again in the second playoff round.
    After that the Bulls will win three consecutive titles again with Jordan leading them. This time the base team is quite different: Harper - Jordan - Pippen - Rodman - Longley and a luxury 6th man in Kukoc.

    If I am not mistaken the only team to win 3 championships in a row after the NBA became predominantly black is the Lakers of Shaq and Kobe in the early years of the new millenium (albeit with ridiculous help from the refs to reach the final in their third title campaign). Jordan's Bulls did it twice and with two rather different sets of players (other than Jordan and Pippen).
    I dont know what Lebron is gonna have to do to top that feat...
     
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  21. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #646 JamesBH11, May 15, 2014
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
    I rep you for a good fact and good point.

    However, compared Jordan (with Bulls) and Le Bron (now) was a bit unfair ...
    WINNING trophies = Team effort with of course individual contribution (which Le Bron was not inferior at all)

    Just ECXAMPLE:
    1- loook what did Messi win with Barca (a great team) in his reign if we DEDUCT the gifted 2 ligas + 1 UCL from Ronaldinho + Rijkaard era .. when he was a junior and a SUB????

    2- What did CR7 win with Real (another great team) so far even he banged in goals for fun?
    Could we say they did NOT contribute enough? NOOOOOOO

    So to count the number of TEAM Trophies is not that ACCURATE as we compare them INDIVIDUALLY.

    No one could deny Zizinho 50, Puskas 54, Eusebio 66, Cruijff 74 or Muller 70 effort INDIVIDUALLY but YET their team LOST the WC!!!

    Look Bobby Moore and Banks NEVER won any big trophies (for their so-so CLub team) and who could say they were not among the TOP legends???
     
  22. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    An individual player has more influence in basketball than in soccer, being one out of five players versus one out of eleven for the team. It is perfectly accurate to compare them on team trophies, and even if James won six league titles like Jordan, he had to go to his cherry-picked team to win them whereas Jordan stayed until he made Chicago into a winner.
     
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    yes, and STATS said Jordan did NOT really have bbetter individual STATS then Lebron in their best seasons ...
    The difference = Pipen and his co helped Jordan MORE then Le Bron's team mates

    Jordan was like a Di Stefano with Real 50-60's or a Messi of Barca 10-14, and Le Bron was like a Cruijff of Holland 70's or a Puskas of Honved LOL

    NO CLEAR difference = my point (regardless who was better)
     
  24. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    My post was sort of a continuation of Pipiolo's. He left it at "Jordan stuck through the hard times with the Bulls until he finally took them to the NBA title." What I did was to perhaps complete that thought because in my view leaving it at "Jordan stayed until he made the Bulls champions" does not make full justice to what he actually did with/for the Bulls.
    On the other hand you have Lebron, an excellent player and a freak of nature, who led his Cavs to several good regular seasons usually doing less good in the playoffs other than the finals he reached in 2007 to be killed by the Spurs. But then when his contract was up he left, which in itself its not terrible. But it happens to be so that he left to join two other franchise players in the same team which resulted in two teams of the East conference losing their main man (Cavs and Raptors) so Lebron together with Bosh would join forces with Wade in the Heat. It just takes away from whatever they might achieve in the end the way I personally see it, thats all.
     
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  25. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    I agree except with the "perfectly accurate" part... Its a factor to consider but not a definitive parameter. It makes legacies and speaks of greatness, but does not really dictate who was better (just like in other team sports like football). For instance, the legendary Oscar Robertson has only one title. That certainly makes him a lesser legend than say Magic Johnson who has 5, but does it automatically make him a worse player? Steve Nash has not titles, does that automatically mean Tony Parker was a superior PG? Etc, etc.

    I dunno who is BETTER between Jordan and Lebron, but I prefer Jordan. In my view Jordan was a better scorer and an amazing perimeter defender, with a mental toughness and a killer instinct probably never seen before nor again. This probably makes him a better leader than Lebron too.
    Lebron's physique sets him appart. Because of his remarkable physical prowess he can play four positions, maybe all five. Being his size and as strong yet fast as he is this also means Lebron can defend more positions than Jordan could which makes some people believe he is a better defender than Mike was, but I think Jordan may have the advantage defending the perimeter. Lebron will obviously get more boards than Jordan. He is also a more "natural" passer than Jordan probably was. Turns the ball over more often than Jordan too. So far I dont think I have seen Lebron show the mental strength Jordan had. This is just my view on them.
     
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