Pele vs Lionel Messi

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Daniel96, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Look, Nesta stopped Messi from scoring, but didn't stop him from creating (Messi assisted for the first goal) and playing, causing danger for Milan. In other words, he didn't stop him from having an impact on the game. At this point, everyone with a brain inside his head should know by now that Messi doesn't only score. He also assists, creates and is generally involved in most plays. So saying "Nesta stopped Messi" is misleading statement.

    Moreover, pretty much every time Nesta went 1v1 with Messi he had to foul him (a foul is a foul, soft or hacking). The yellow card he earned himself was well deserved, because he was pulling on Messi's shoulder (not pushing). Is that what a world-class defender is supposed to do? I guess, history shows us so. But so what? I'm not denying Nesta is a world-class defender. In fact, he is one of my favorite defenders (along with Thuram, Maldini, Cannavaro and Scirea). I'm simply disputing the misleading statement "Nesta stopped Messi".

    Ha, look who's talking....the irony of your statement.....:rolleyes:

    Messi wasn't crying about that Nesta tackle. He was upset with himself for not shooting earlier, rather than toying with Nesta. How did Nesta stop him from scoring in that situation? He had to make a last moment desperate tackle that got the ball but also Messi's legs. No, I'm not saying it should've been a PK, just saying....before you say something else stupid.

    Yeah ok, that was a great tackle by Nesta, credit to him for that situation. But he didn't stop Messi from creating, being dangerous, he didn't marking Messi out of the game. Nesta simply stopped Messi from SCORING in ONE situation....that's all - no more, no less.

    That is the only thing we see from your video. But that is not from Euro2000 and Cannavaro has stopped Henry with legal means in other situations.

    So? Nesta "stopped" Messi with fouls.....What is your point?

    All great defenders (past or present) have had mixed experiences (success or failure) against great attacking players (past or present). Sometimes they stop them with legal means, other times with illegal means. Sometimes great attacking players make even great defenders look stupid. Sometimes defenders stop attacking players from scoring but not from creating, assisting or looking dangerously in the game. Other times defenders completely mark players out of the game. The fact is though, that all a great attacking player needs is ONE moment of brilliance, scoring or assisting or creating.....and the perception changes.

    So saying that "so-and-so stopped so-and-so" is a general sweeping, misleading and/or incomplete statement. Stopped how, from what and when? Of course, all this started with your claim that players like Maradona and Ronaldo have embarrassed great defenders in the past while Messi hasn't.

    I don't think you've watched, analyzed and remember enough football games to make such statements. Judging by most things you write, it seems like you are coming from a selective memory and false interpretations. But what can I say...I'm arguing with someone like you who thinks "defensive evolution" didn't happen.....:eek::rolleyes:
     
  2. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I don't think it is a misleading statement, precisely because in my opinion, Nesta did stop Messi from scoring (and would have stopped him from assisting too if not for the incompetence of his defensive partners).

    Just as you say that Messi is part of plays and also a part of creating opportunities for his team (along with his teammates who help him achieve this) so is Nesta a part of thwarting those plays and stopping those opportunities from materializing (along with his teammates who help him achieve this). If Messi is successful because of an error by a teammate of Nesta's (in scoring or assisting) it is not Nesta's fault. Just like it isn't Messi's fault if his teammates do not score on throughballs and 1-on-1 opportunities that he has provided for them.

    In any case, and this is my final contribution to this topic considering that I was not involved in this in the first place and only provided my perspective because I wanted to explain to you what a defender's job was IMO, Nesta also stopped Messi plenty of times without conceding soft fouls or hacking him but by simply being a good defender (a great example being his goal saving tackle in the box). This is something which you have completely overlooked.

    P.S. I consider the bolded to be flaming and unnecessarily offensive language btw. And just to clarify, I did not at any point wish to imply earlier that Messi's only job for his team, is scoring.
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Very well said and perceived. Thanks to the small clip that we all could re-watch Nesta did KEPT MESSI quiet (it's no shame as Nesta was among the greatest CB BTW) by robbing the ball, anticipating passes toward Messi for no less than 10 times.

    silly thing is that Messi's fans (same with CR7 fans) are so sensitive about the TRUTH - again which is no shame. I ONLY BROUGHT this as some claimed
    Messi dribbles were better than Maradona or Ronaldo with the ball on his feet
    - with reasons: WHO Maradona faced off and WHO Messi faced off as the plain and simple context.

    On counter part, we can see Nesta was "STRUGGLING" to stop Ronaldo in his games (Lazio vs Inter UEFA final98) with help of Paolo Negro and/or Favali - remember it always takes at least TWO men to stop Ronaldo in his peak. Ronaldo scored 1 and hit the top right corner bar 1.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9gThIpUFCo"]Ronaldo Vs Nesta - Uefa Cup Final 98 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    So did Abiatti and the post stopped Messi from scoring. So what? Go and watch again the play where Messi set up the first goal for Barca. He blew right past Nesta and his covering teammate (Abbate), even though the Italian defender made an effort to stop him by bumping into him. Here is a video of the highlights from that game (look carefully at the 2:11 mark):

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTn5nAVxFvE"]FC Barcelona vs AC Milan 2-2 13/09/2011/ Champions League - YouTube[/ame]

    If Abbate did better to stop Messi, that wouldn't be credit to Nesta, now would it?

    I'm not saying that if Messi beats Nesta's teammates is Nesta's fault. But Messi beat Nesta and his teammate Abbate to create the first goal. So two players, one of which was Nesta, couldn't stop Messi from creating this goal.

    I know very well what a defender's job is. Nesta stopped Messi from scoring directly in only one situation of the match. In other occasions, Abiatti or the post stopped Messi from scoring. On some occasions Nesta stopped Messi from creating something by fouling him. Still, Nesta didn't stop Messi from having an impact on the game. Therefore, saying a general statement like "Nesta stopped Messi" remains misleading. He did well against him on some occasions, while not so well in others. Other players or factors also stopped Messi from scoring. But nobody did enough to stop him from having an impact on the game and playing well.

    Then you must be paranoid, because the bolded statement wasn't directed at you personally.
     
  5. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Sometimes it takes more than one player to stop Messi's dribbles. Sometimes it took just one player to stop Ronaldo's or Maradona's dribbles. You can't make general statements and use that to prove a point or an opinion that Messi's dribbles are not as good as Maradona's or Ronaldo's were. And especially, you can't make statements about Maradona vs great defenders without backing them up with video, only relying on your selective memory and counting others don't remember and just agree with you.

    Maradona was a great player (come on, you know he is the greatest player in my book), but he didn't embarrass great defenders with his dribbling any more than Messi does at present. Ronaldo did play against a few more great defenders in his day than Messi, but he had mixed success. However, he did in deed embarrass some of them, as you provide evidence in your video. Maybe today there aren't that many defenders we can call "great" who can play against Messi exactly because he runs riots against all of them? Who would you call great defenders in the last 5 seasons? Let's sort that out and then we will see how Messi has done against them.
     
  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    1- the difference is right there as answer to your propose:
    Most of time it takes 2,3 to stop Maradona $ Ronaldo, only "sometimes" they were stopped by 1. In other hand. Messi passed most the times with 1 DF, and only sometimes he faced 2,3. Now as a player which scenarios are easier? Not even mention of the "quality of those 2,3 DF compared to 1 DF now"

    2- The answer is NONE. Some notable good to very good: Vicic (faded now), Chielini, Thiago , Maicon (faded) ...

    Only old Nesta was still very good: coincidently as he faced Messi, he stopped him (scoring) and got the highest rated both cases :
    2011 UCL Nesta 8.5 Messi 7.5, and last game 2012 Nesta 7.5 and Messi 6.5
     
  7. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    This is only according to your nostalgic selective memory.

    Here we go again.......Did you see the two tackles Nesta had to use to stop Messi's dribbling runs? Tell me those tackles are not desperate attempts of an embarrassed defender.
     
  8. Alexander88

    Alexander88 Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    Club:
    AC Milan
    first of all,pele doesn't even enter the top 10 list of greatest players of all time..

    People always get excited when they hear "oooo pele scored 1283 goals" "ooo pele won 3 world cups" "ooo pele is such a gentlemen" lets decipher these facts--

    1283 goals--Its absolute Bullshit..obviously the youth team goals and goals when pele served in brazilian army was added to that tally..in the '60s era similar goalscoring feats were achieved by Eusebio(700 goals) and Gerd Mueller(600 goals)..but youth goals were not added to the tally of these European players..so pele's REAL career goals would stand somewhere between 700..

    another thing is that in that era of football,it was possible to score 700 goals but now it is beyond impossible because football has drastically evolved for the past 50 years..now teams play in 4-4-2 formation rather than 2-3-5 formation in pele's era..pele always brags about how no one would be able to achieve his 1000 goal feat when he blatantly ignores the evolution of football from his time..in fact Romario has scored over 1000 goals(youth goals included) in the modern era but no one ever creates a hype about him??? obviously,when a person kisses the *** of fifa politicians then he is sure to get all the limelight and that is exactly what pele did..

    3 world cups???--in 1958,pele wasn't even a regular team member..didi was officially the best player of that tournament yet no one remembers him..in 1962,pele only played 5 mins of the tournament before he was injured by a not-so-hard tackle(maradona used to get kicks in his body regularly and yet he stood like an iron figure!!)..Garrincha was voted the best player of 1962 World Cup..in 1970,pele scored 4 goals(yet Jairzinho scored 8 and Mueller scored 10)..obviously when pele had such legendary players around,it was inevitable that he would win 3 world cups,YET he never was the real force behind those World cup wins..

    Pele a gentlemen??- in 1960's it was reported that he had sex with "xuxa" or brazilian prostitutes..then pele left brazil in 1974 and went USA in exchange of some fatty cashes and not to play any professional football..then he joined this FIFA cabal,and then went on to hurt Zico's feelings when Zico was dubbed by the brazilians as the "white pele"..then pele initiated a friendship with maradona but he quickly turned against him when people began to see that maradona's unparalleled ball control and extraordinary dribbling was far greater than pele's ordinary skills..then when,maradona scored the greatest goal that mankind will remember forever,pele made many false accusations against maradona..then in 2000,when an internet poll was conducted about the greatest player of 20th century-Maradona came on top but Fifa refused to give him that award just because maradona didn't serve as Fifa's "poster boy"..eventually a dual award was made for pele,but in all truth,pele is never near to the quality of maradona..

    pele always attacked players whom general public supported like Zico,Maradona,Ronaldo,Ronaldinho..and now pele is attacking Messi,telling him that he can never match his quality..but when one lifts the curtain,it becomes very clear that pele is nothing but an overrated bastard who becomes jealous whenever a player far better than him..because pele doesn't go to the football field and instead sells cheap viagra for impotents and make statues of him everywhere..

    If only a person goes into the biography of pele,then he can surely uncover the REAL pele-a person who never understands what football is...
     
  9. Alexander88

    Alexander88 Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    Club:
    AC Milan
    for me the greatest are

    Maradona
    Ronaldo
    Messi
     
  10. Louis Soccer

    Louis Soccer New Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Apr 17, 2017
    1. Pele
    2. Cruyff
    3. Messi
    4. Ronaldo Nazario
    5. Maradona
    6. Beckenbauer
    7. Di Stefano
    8. Puskas
    9. Garrincha
    10. Zico
     

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