Pele played in more difficult conditions

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sir_Artur, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    yes but that was just WC and only counted from 1966 - 2010. Anyway ... I agree with that at "WC level" Maradona was the most fouled as obviously seen at 82 to 90, no need to count !

    No , If we sketch the plot biggger in leagues, and over whole career , I am not sure if Maradona would have same number of fouls that Pele got ... (but clearly Pele played more games)
     
  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    This is WORLD BEST XI by Placar 1984 (before Maradona WC86)

    Formation 4 2 4 ( or 4 2 2 2 diagonal) a la Brazil 58 and 70 winning teams.

    ------------ Puskas(9)------------- Garrincha(7)
    Cruijff(11)------------ Pele (10)------------------
    --------B. Charlton(8)-------DiStefano(6)------
    N.Santos(3)---------------------------D.Santos(2)
    -----------B.Moore(4) ---Beckenbauer(5)----------
    -----------------Lev Yashin-(1)------------------
     
  3. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    What are you babbling about now? You can easily find footage of the 1966 WC nowadays.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Pelé scored 17 goals (2PK) in 15 games in the Libertadores. Who can match that?
     
  5. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #80 JamesBH11, Jan 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
    then show it with all 90mins full games of everygame if you can ... and GOOD LUCK
    Remember do the "Smart research, and Smart Thinking" before doing the nonesense smart talk
     
  6. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    I told you they are on youtube, pigeon. Have you never watched them? All three games of Brazil are available in full:


     
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  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #82 JamesBH11, Jan 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
    ... to be exact of the final KOs or playoff stage: 15goals/13games +2 subs
    1962: Pele 4goals/2games (+2 subs) ----Won cup
    1963:pele 4goals/4games ----------------Won cup
    1964: Pele not played --------------------(lost in SF)
    1965: Pele 7goals/7games --------------- (lost in final)

    So Pele got minimum 1GPG (or 1.2 to be exact) at Libertadores
    The average Top scorer of Libertadores from 60-75 were like 0.6 or 0,7GPG (Pele still double or close)
     
  8. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    congratulations that you finally did some homework ... and keep that up ...
     
  9. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Probably nobody has matched that. I checked for the players I thought had the best shot and Alberto Spencer comes the closest with 21 goals in 21 matches (I dunno about pks) between 1960 and 1963 (he did not play in 64 and 65 and played many more times from 1966 onwards but with lower scoring rates). This while scoring way less in the Uruguayan league than Pele in the Paulista.
    Coutinho managed 10 goals in 12 appearances (played the same editions as Pele did) and Sanfilippo scored 8 times in 11 games (played in 1960 with San Lorenzo and in 1963 with Boca).
     
  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #85 JamesBH11, Jan 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
    My bad ... MEMORY ...
    lET's Add Libertadore 1966: Pele 2goals/4games
    So total Pele 17goals/15games full start + 2 subs

    Puck's number was correct !
    ========================================

    by 1966, Libertadore changed the format (bigger) and Onela (Riverplate) left a record of 17goals/18games single libertadore 66
     
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  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    I believe Juan Carlos De Lima scored 12 goals in 12 matches in the 86 and 88 editions combined. Not sure if he played in any other years however.
     
  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I have to check.... butr that besides the point: different era and different format than Pele's time
    (changed by 66 and later in 80's)
     
  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    Of course different era, the different format is accounted for by looking at goals per game.
     
  14. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Neither Pele, not Santos, nor any Brazilian team for that matter played the 1966 Libertadores, James.
     
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  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    another big rep for you - that is absolutely right!
    I must have added Taca Brazil 1966 in by mistake :devilish:

    I am getting too old .. (LOL)
    so my first number was correct 15goals/13games (or 15 if including 2 last min subs at 62 )
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Another great achievement of Pele in scoring at Interconitental cup:

    1-Pele 7goals/3games *62 & 63 (= 2.33GPG not inlcuding 3ass)
    2- A Spencer 6goals/5games 60-61 &66 (= 1.2GOG
    ...
    others 3 with 3goals/2games (1.5GPG) or below ... (from 60-70)
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #92 JamesBH11, Jan 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
    A true and funny story at WC1966:

    The Beatles came to Brazil camp to see and talk to Pele in Liverpool ... but (too bad) Peledid not recognize any of them (their face and names LOL) so they were refused by (Brazil officers)
    Pele was only 24 at time = same age of John Lennon

    ... 20years after, the two geniuses of different domains (John and Pele) had a chance to meet and spoke to each other )

    Was he already more famous than the Beatles?

    upload_2015-1-19_18-3-37.png
     
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  18. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    It couldn't be 20 years later, John Lennon passed away in 1980.
     
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  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    spot on... I just (blindly google translate the article LOL)

    But here is the more appropriate context: " A few years later" (below)

    Pelé – Beatles can’t buy Brazil’s love
    by PEDRO REDIG on Oct 17, 2013 • 9:57 pmNo Comments
    [​IMG]
    George Harrison and The Beatles were not allowed to play a private concert for Brazil in 1966, according to Pelé
    © Eric Fish

    The Beatles offered to play for Brazil at the 1966 FIFA World Cup but the answer was ‘no’, Pelé revealed at the launch of a special book about the most celebrated football player of all time. The 72 year-old told an audience in São Paulo that the Brazilian camp received a call from the Fab-Four proposing to play in a private show for them during the 1966 World Cup in England.

    A few years later, Pelé met with John Lennon on a foreign language course, the Liverpudlian learning Japanese and the Brazilian studying English. Lennon asked Pelé why the offer of such an exclusive gig was refused. ”Carlos Nascimento (who was in charge of the team camp) said
    those ‘long haired guys will never be let in here,” Pelé told the Beatle.

    ========================================================

    To be exact I think it was 1976, that Pele met John in NY (when he was with Cosmos) - I think Yoko Ono made an effort with others to organize a "language class in exchange " among all celebrities !
     
  20. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    It would be the case if Messi and CR7 was a product of a supposed sunday league players' training opportunities.
    You would not have known Messi if he was to grow under the conditions that supposed sunday league players became under. He could not have been a player.
     
  21. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    Had Messi played in a league like the league Pele played in, he could not have survived 1 match, his career would have ended up before starting.

    If Pele played in a sh.tty league like La Liga of Messi, he would have scored thousands more, on the other hand had Messi grew up under the conditions Pele grew up under, he could not have been a footballer.
     
  22. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    Which of the above teams treated Maradona in the same way Portughals treated Pele?
    OR when did Maradona need to play with a plaster? Pele was so brutally attacked that he needed to play with a plaster, no comparison. Pele faced far more brutal tackles than Maradona has ever faced.

    EDIT: if you are going to compare someone against Pele in terms of the violence of the tackles they suffered, you had better choose him/her from Boxing or Karate or may be even from the prisoners who were tortured, not from football and not Maradona even though he also suffered heavy tackles, that are nowhere near the ones Pele faced.
     
  23. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    Do you have any data on how frequently injuries where occuring back then or are you just rambling nonsenses?
    That argument makes sense only if huge majority of players were getting injured at the time, but Pele was somehow resistant of that:
    Btw, it's incredible stupid to claim Messi wouldn't be able to cope with it since Messi is one of few players in history who season in season out manages to play 60+ games. He had like 2 fairly major injuries in last 8 years or so. There is no evidence for that era being any tougher, nor there is evidence for Messi being made of glass.

    I would understand the claim if it was against someone like Aguero, Reus, Bale, Sturridge, Gundogan, etc. But Messi? Makes no ********ing sense whatsoever.

    :[​IMG]
    (was out for like only 3 weeks after that tackle)
    [​IMG]
    (he continued to play)

    (he continued to play)

    This little mother ********er is tougher than you think..
     
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  24. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    First of all,had Messi been born in 40s, he could not have been a footballer. Football was not a rich sector back then and football clubs would not have discovered him back then let alone finding him and covering his expenses for his illness. That is why I say he could not have been a footballer had he been born in 40s.

    Moreover, if he was born in 40s and still was paid for his growth hormone insufficiency, he would still have not been a footballer he is now. Just bring him to our village (I am not challenging, just telling it to illustrate the case), make him play against us and allow us to violently tackle as much as defenders were allowed for violence back in 60s, I can bet he will not be able to dribble a single player from our village, let alone the ones from Brazil championships or Copa Libertadoers.

    Do you really think he could dribble Pepe or any tough defender in case those defenders were allowed to treat him in the way Pele was being treated in 60s?

    Players would just knock him down. Really, no comparison, he would not stand a chance.

    Today's comfortable conditions allow him to be the one he is now, if he was to play under the conditions of 50s, 60s he could not have been a dribbler. Thank god that referee protection is higher now, otherwise we could not have Leo Messi the dribbler.

    btw, no, I have no data comparison of the amount and frequency of the injuries but watching the games of then and now, I can easily see how chhildish and comfortable today's football is compared to 60s.
     
  25. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    Lol.
    Pele in 21st century would have had too long the right big toe so he wouldn't be capable of wearing modern boots hence he would have never become a football player.

    That seals it...
    But a nice discussion tho. You almost had it.
     

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