Pele played in more difficult conditions

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sir_Artur, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #51 JamesBH11, Jan 14, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2015
    I meant I saw them in same NASL.

    However the two did have a face/off in Pele's last season with Santos (passed peak) vs Cruyff's first season at Barca (peak) in 1974. Pele scored the only goal for Santos (lost 1-4 to Barca of Cruyff)
     
  2. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    #52 Gregoriak, Jan 15, 2015
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
    Regarding the evolution of player's equipment there is an interesting article about that in the 1970 "Kicker" World Cup special edition where a comparison between the 1954 gear of the West German team is made with the gear of the 1970 team (on the left Wolfgang Overath, on the right Fritz Walter):

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    What the text says (in short):

    Greatest discrepancy are the boots. In 1954 they weighed 400 gramm (0.88 lbs), in 1970 the weight was 260 gramm (0.57 lbs). That is a difference of 140 gramm (0.31 lbs). This means, that a player in 1954 had to carry an extra weight of 140 g with every step he made. It was calculated that this translates to an accumulated extra weight of over 1 ton over the course of a game. Further advantages of the 1970 boot: the boots are cushioned, they consist of a specially fabricated leather which is lighter, the sole has a “special bed” for the foot and is more flexible.
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, understood. Pelé did play against the other two names you mentioned (Best and Eusebio). One issue was that the league commissioners (and NY Cosmos too) didn't want Cosmos to be too dominating (which they nevertheless still were). Hence many possible acquisitions never proceeded, and they stuck with the one who had performed well and/or were the most marketable and appealing to the masses.

    This is not entirely correct. This match (where Cruijff played curiously with #6 as a midfielder) was played in September 1974, thus Cruijff his 2nd season with the club. Pelé played indeed his last season at Santos and would finish his competitive club matches with Santos at October 1974.
    It is right that Pelé scored Santos their only goal in the match, albeit a goal from the penalty spot.
     
  4. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    If such was the advantage by 1970 compared to 1954 and you do assume that such advantage favored particularly the finesse offensive players, how do you explain the visible drop in scoring in general in WC and also leagues? In other words, isnt it clear that whatever else that had evolved in the game (trends, tactics, proffesionalism, whathaveyou) made scoring so much harder that whatever advantage the shoes may have signified for offensive players in particular was largely outweight by it in terms of how easy they got it?
     
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  5. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    In the 1960s great changes in the tactical approach of the game took place. For the first time in the history of the game, defensive aspects were considered more important than offensive ones. During the 1950s most teams still fielded 5 forwards while by the end of the 1960s it wasn't uncommon to play with only 2 forwards. The 5 vs 5 balance of the 3-2-5 system (2 full backs + 1 center half + 2 half backs vs. 2 inside forwards + 3 outright forwards) was dropped in favor of more defensive players than offensive players. These tactical changes among other things might have outweighed the advantages that improved equipment brought for offensive players. Also, the job description of defenders became more refined by the end of the 1960s so they also benefitted from the better equipment. All this is of course speculation.

    I once started a thread about the decrease of goals scored in the English First Division between 1960 and 1970.

    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/english-football-revolution-of-the-1960s.1881704/

    Something I noticed when I browsed vintage football year books when looking at the team rosters was that goalkeepers generally were quite smaller than what we are used today. Today a goalkeeper is considered "small" when he only measures 1.85 meters (6 ft). In the 1960s and 1970s, he would have been one of the tallest keepers with that size, as the majority of them back in those days measured between 1.74 and 1.82 m (5 ft 8.5 in and 5 ft 11 in). Today most keepers are usually taller than 1.90 m (6 ft 2 in).

    If keepers in the 1960s and 70s were 15-20 centimeters smaller than keepers 40 years later, how tall were keepers in the 1920s, 30s, 40s? Since the size of the goals - to my knowledge - has not changed over the past 100 years, this means that keepers were much more disadvantaged in relation of their size to the size of the goal than current keepers are. Simple example: a keeper in 1935 measuring 1.73 meters ( 5 ft 8 in) might claim a shot as "unsavable" with all justification because his arms just weren't long enough to reach it. If you replace that keeper with one from 2015 and a height of 1.95 meter (6 ft 5 in), that same shot probably might be an easy save for him.
     
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  6. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Personally I think there was lots of factors, bigger keepers maybe, referees looking after keeps more (in the 50s the keeper would get battered and fouled all the time and the ref would never give it) more defensive line ups; a lot of English teams after facing Italian sides in Europe and learned from their mentaility of going one up and defending a lead, also as teams became more proffessional and worked on defensive units as opposed to a team thats primaray focus was attack and support the attackers.
     
  7. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    In hindsight I am quite amazed at how swiftly English clubs apparently adopted the "Brazilian" system of zonal defense introduced in the late-1950s. By the late-1960s, zonal defense was by and large the standard system also in English top flight football. My comparison is always to Germany, where 100% zonal defense was considered "too dangerous" to be applied thoroughly and thus didn't really became the standard system of all top flight clubs for another three decades. When Germany played at Wembley in 1972 against England in one of the previews in an English newspaper the writer remarked how strange it was that Germany was still playing with an antiquated man-to-man marking system.

    Continental Europe always thinks of English football as tactically outmoded and old-fashioned but in those days they were part of the tactical avantgarde it seems.
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    https://achimkemmerling.wordpress.c...-why-some-countries-underperform-in-football/

    Interesting that they see Briegel (79kg/183cm) as a 'big' player ('big' as in heavy for their size) for that time while it's actually not uncommon for pro players to have more kgs as 'size minus one metre' (e.g. ~70 kg at 1.68 or so; 95kg at 1.95).

    A higher weight (relative to size) would also support the idea that football has become more of a sprinting game, at least in the attacking line, in the past few decades.

    Goalkeeper height at World Cups:
    http://www.sportseconomics.org/sports-economics/frazier-forrester-0-minutes-1-record

    Maybe an increase of 5-10cm over 30-40 years isn't too drastic, although at sport small margins can have huge consequences.

    Being slightly smaller as GK has also as advantage that you can change direction quicker. For ex. one on ones or anticipating a bouncy surface. I read a few years ago an article about this in UEFA Champions magazine, but can't find it back now (it also mentioned how GKs their reflexes are at a peak when they are young, even though they can maintain their career for longer nowadays).
     
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  9. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Besides larger, for what I have heard people say (people involved in the game that is, like former players and journalists) keepers are significantly more capable nowadays than in the black-and-white days. In other words, just like defenders and/or defensive units, keepers today provide much greater resistance to the rival attack than in the days of old.
     
  10. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    That might or might not be true.

    Two things I would like to add:

    1.) professional goalkeeper gloves probably only were developed around 1970, before that, most keepers would not wear any gloves at all or regular gloves.
    2.) before the sweeper system began to be spread, goalkeepers used to be more involved in the built-up of the game than in the sweeper system. This is based on a statement former Germany keeper Hans Tilkowski made a few years ago in an interview. With the sweeper usually right in front of the keeper, the keeper could concentrate on his penalty box, but before that, with defenders more distanced from him (center halves playing in the same line as the full backs and not dropping behind them), he was more involved in the game.
     
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  11. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Purely my opinion but I really think that goalkeeping is the position which has been most improved over recent years. Yes keepers are bigger than they were but they are more agile as well and they feel to me less error-prone.

    Just as an example, how many keepers have there ever been who dominate the goal like Handanovic? Particularly from the penalty spot, he looks unbeatable at times.

    In contrast I've been watching a number of games featuring Andoni Zubizarreta recently. At the time he was always a keeper I rated very highly but some of the errors he made were terrible. I'm sure plenty can be found of contemporary keepers as well but it just stood out to me.
     
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  12. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Country:
    Scotland

    Additionally, the way the laws of the game are interpreted and enforced also benefits those between the sticks to an extent nowadays.

    Certainly more than it did in the earlier part of the twentieth century at least.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #63 PuckVanHeel, Jan 16, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
    The Football League had actually a meeting in 1968 for protecting the goalkeepers better, and decided to do so.
    http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010538554:mpeg21:a0194

    In the article there various opinions are cited with managers and goalkeepers stating the differences with 'Europe'.

    Maybe entirely coincidental but the GPG dropped suddenly from 3.03 GPG to 2.63 GPG in 1968-69 (1967-68 was the last season where it was higher as 3.00 GPG).
    http://scoreshelf.com/blcs/en/English_Premiership

    It was not until 2010-11 before GPG returned to levels higher than 2.80 GPG.

    More famous are the incidents of the 1930s, where goalkeepers ended their career or died (Jimmy Thorpe, not to be confused with the American Jim Thorpe).
     
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  14. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    That definitely helps. They are protected now too much I would say. No more Lofthouse-style charging people into the net.
     
  15. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Country:
    Scotland
    I was thinking the same thing but with John Thomson.
     
  16. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    A minor correction: I believe 6 feet is 1.83m, so your measurement conversions are somewhat off.
     
  17. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    this demonstated either one:

    either Maradona faced softer fouls and Pele faced harder so that Maradona was not injured because of soft fouls but Pele was injured due to hard fouls OR they faced same fouls or Maradona faced worse but Pele was weak and not stable against fouls and Maradona was.

    I do not know why. but really, I have never seen such foul done against Maradona, look at his goals against England and Belgium. against england, he runs about 60 meters and till the goal, defenders did even not try to make a hard challenge, foul. at the end of the run, one england defender tried to fall him down.

    same about the goal scored to belgium, no serious challenge. BUT since it is not rational to judge an era based on JUST a position, you can look at MAradona vs Belgium in a world cup semifinal match, there was no brutal challenge to the best player of that era, there was just one OR TWO serious tackle. btw, I have watched the whole match too, long time ago.

    in internation games, Pele faced more brutal fouls. in club level?! I do not know who faced more brutal tackled but one thing is clear: pele played under more difficulat conditions.
     
  18. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    in waht sense , unless you tried to say Cruiff in Sept 1974 was way passed his peak? Thats' the whole point, 1st or 2nd season were just not so important here!
    Haha I think you're getting old = peaky ...
     
  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    some good points ... that many did not realize :thumbsup:
     
  20. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    Maradona got elbowed in the face by Fenwick (I believe) in the first half against England. But you are only focusing on two matches, what about the treatment Italy gave him in WC82, or South Korea in WC86, or Cameroon, Romania and Yugoslavia in WC90?
     
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  21. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    OK some mentioned of shoes, GK ... now the ball

    Balls Used in FIFA Wordcup from 1930 to 2010
    [​IMG]

    Soccer Ball “T-Model” World Cup 1930, Uruguay.

    ...

    [​IMG]
    Soccer Ball “TOP-STAR” World Cup-1958, Sweden.

    ..
    [​IMG]
    Soccer Ball “Challenge 4-Star” World Cup-1966, England.
    ..

    [​IMG]
    The official soccer ball “Telstar Durlast” World Cup-1974, Germany.

    ...
    [​IMG]
    The official soccer ball “Azteco Mexico” World Cup-1986, Mexico.

    ..
    [​IMG]
    The official soccer ball “Fevernova” World Cup 2002 in South Korea and Japan.
    ..


    [​IMG]
    The official soccer ball “Jabulani” World Cup 2010, South Africa .

    [​IMG]
    The official soccer ball “Brazzuca” World Cup 2014 final game
     
  22. United_xxx

    United_xxx Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    Thailand
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Based on CASTROL stat, Maradona was the most fouled player in WC history, so, your cherry-picking moments prove nothing.



     
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  23. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    LoL :D you must either be a new learner of English or owner of IQ which is lower than the kit number of PELE in order to make such logical fallacy in my dialog with @Pipiolo :D we are not talking about the number of fouls, the brutality of fouls. we are talking about who played with more BRUTAL fouls. :))

    btw, CASTROL stats are based on WCs sice 1966 which means only 7 or 8 WC matches of Pele is included vs 21 of Maradona :)
     
  24. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Just a portion of what you can see in either one of those vids was enough for three things to happen. Firstly, Pelé to retaliate and almost brake a player's leg in two or more pieces (first game of Brazil in 1966 against Bulgaria). Secondly, Pelé to quit the NT activity due to this amount of brutality. Thirdly, it was enough for the whole world to accept and forever hold in a tight embrace the idea that Pele was hacked out of the 1966 WC with a brutality never seen again nor after. Well, internet has made footage easily available now and that kind of shite has a much harder time flying nowadays.
     
  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    then show it like you cluelessly showed with Quarentinha (to comapre to Pele)? and Spain Liga vs Brazil "regional" Leagues in the 50-60s LOL
     

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