You know Im sick of this Euro Types biased against Brazilian Soccer. Forget AJAX or Bayern, for some of the best teams ever, try Brazilian Inter 1975-76, Flamengo 81, Sao Paulo 91-92. You guys seem to think that Europe always had the best of Brazlian and South American players, but it wasnt always like that. In the 70's and early 80's All Brazilian Star were playing in Brazilian Clubs. Euro teams are only as good as they are now because they are loaded with South American players otherwise it would be no difernt than in the 60's and 70's where the REAL best Teams where South of the Border. Inter 75-76 or Flamengo 81 woulda won ANY major Euro title. Look its no coincidence that Brazil has 5 World Titles, all won outside their home and continent.
Most thinking people don't think that Europe has always had all the best South American players. However it has often happened. While you say that South Ameicans were the "real best in the world" the statistics just don't support it. South America won 6 of the 10 Intercontinental cups played in the 1960s, which were violent affirs and saw the South Americans attempt to unsettle their European opponents though dirty play. In the 1970s Europe won 4 out of the 8 played, although on 5 out of the 8 games played the European Champions declined to attend. That is how seriously the Europeans took the game, they didn't even bother with it. If being level, even when the best teams didn't even bother to play is some sign of domination then you will have to let me in on it. It's all very well to claim that Inter would have won any European trophy, but where is the proof? Their league performance? Tell that to Arsenal. The best that we can say for Flamengo or Inter is that they might have won any European title, just as Liverpool or Bayern or Ajax might have won the S American titles. Or they might not. BTW Brazil won the 1962 WC in Chile which the last time I checked was part of S America.
There is no way for anyone to say one team would definetly be better than another but.... Heres some video evidence of Inter 1976 amazing skills: With you ... Figueiroa to Dario to Escurinho to Falcao to Escurinho to Falcao to Net. www.digital-photography-forums.com/golaco.zip
Soccerscout. Deep down, we know. We really do. Maybe the snobbery lies within the actual domestic leagues? I get the impression that Europe looks down its nose at the organisation of the South American Leagues. I think there is a degree of ignorance to what South American clubs have achieved. Liverpool dominated Europe in the early 80's, but often found it tough in the World Club Championship.
You forgot to quote the important second part of Comme`s post: South America won 6 of the 10 Intercontinental cups played in the 1960s, which were violent affairs and saw the South Americans attempt to unsettle their European opponents though dirty play. When the South Americans started to be dominated by Argentine clubs, the level of dirty play reached new heights, which by the early 70s led to several European teams not being interested in a match vs. an Argie club side and thus declining the offer. If SA teams were so much better, why was it them that were so interested in competing with the allegedly inferior European teams, and not the opposite?
I agree Flamengo in 1981 was an awesome team. Nobody will deny that. But what about Brazil`s Inter in 75-76? They didn`t even reach the Copa Libertadores final. In their group, they lost 0-2 to Cruzeiro and got eliminated. Cruzeiro went on to win the Copa in 1976 against River Plate. And Cruzeiro then lost quite soundly against Bayern in the World Club Cup finals (0-0 in Brazil, 0-2 in Munich). When Ajax for once bothered to compete with Indepediente in 1973, they beat them 4-1 (1-1 in Amsterdam, 3-0 in Buenos Aires). There were three teams that dominated European football during the 1970s: Ajax in the first half of the decade, Bayern in the middle and Liverpool in the second half. Two of these teams met the Copa Libertadores winners once each, and both times they won soundly. Liverpool declined to play Boca Juniors in 1977 (there was no final in 1978). Based on these results, it isn`t too far fetched that the dominating European teams of the 1970s would have played a not a too shabby role in the SA club championship, if they had participated.
Both maradona and Pele were awesome in their time, but imagine, if somehow both start playing with the same age right know...i think that Maradona will do better
Well, to be fair, of the four times Liverpool won the EC1 between 1977 and 1984, only twice did they bother to show up against the Copa Libertadores winner. They declined in 1977 and 1978. Both times their opponent would have been Boca Juniors. I think Liverpool *could* have done pretty well in a two legs final, one at Anfield and one in Buenos Aires, if they had bothered to travel to Argentina.
Apologies Gregoriak, I realise I may be commenting on a subject that I don't know enough about. It's just that I saw some footage recently of Liverpool getting the runaround from Flamengo.
A nice goal, no doubt, but the finish is weak as piss, and as we all know video tells us nothing about the real quality of the sides. I could produce moments of genius from Glenn Hoddle to say that he is the greatest player ever, it wouldn't necessarily be true. As for the supposed domination of the South Americans, as Gregoriak points out my implication was that the violent nature of the games was as much he reason for the (narrow) S American advantage as any superior skill. There are numerous articles on how Estudiantes treated Manchester United in their two ties.
I figured it was about time for another Pele vs Maradona thread. For what is worth, I grew up immersed in the game and I'm a couple of years younger than Maradona, so I watched his whole career unfold. I have watched football for over 30 years, and eight World Cups. I can say that I have never seen anybody who played like Diego Maradona. The guy was pure magic on the field, he was so unpredictable and had such ball control that you never knew what he'd do. He was amazing like a circus freak is amazing, not like your typical dominant athlete. And he was not only a great individual player but he made everybody who played with him into a better player. Most people remember Diego for the World Cups and what he did at Napoli. But really the only cup at which he was 100 percent was 86. (In 82 many say he should not have been declared fit to play, in 90 he played on one leg, and in 94 he was coming back from a long layoff.) But people don't know the Diego Maradona that we saw in Argentina. In 1981, by the age of 20 he had already played over 200 first division matches, not including internationals and friendlies. He had scored over 140 goals, even though he was not a goal scoring forward but rather a player who always created for others first, and looked to score second. And many of his goals were scored in spectacular fashion, not unlike what people saw later in Mexico 86 and at Napoli. Every sunday he'd leave the fans shaking their head, saying, 'what we just witnessed is impossible'. But of course anybody who saw Diego play over time knows that his contributions to a match went way beyond how many goals he scored and how spectacular they were. He could single-handedly dominate a match and he was able to improve everybody's game. The only player I have seen who comes even close to Maradona is Romario. Romario didn't roam the whole field like Maradona, but when he got the ball, he had the same magic, and the same ability to do the unexpected and make opponents look foolish. I haven't seen anybody else who can be comparable. As far as Pele, he was already a legend in Argentina when I was born, and I have been fortunate to watch some tape on him, especially in the last few years, which confirms everything which was said about him. And his success with Santos and with Brazil speaks for itself. So I cannot bring myself to say that Maradona is better than Pele. I just say that I cannot see how anybody can argue against either of these two being the best. Maybe it is a copout, but that is how I feel. There has never been a player like Pele and there has never been a player like Maradona. I am not going to be comparing them to somebody from the old days who I haven't seen except in limited highlights, like Moreno, Zizinho, Di Stefano or Garrincha for example, but in the years I've been watching football nobody can touch these two. I think anybody who puts down one of these two to build up the other one is really missing the point. It's like arguing Mozart vs Beethoven. I appreciate greatness, and when you reach such heights, greatness is impossible to measure and compare.
I wouldn't say SA teams were so much better, but they were good and they could compete with the top European teams. For example, in 1978 Boca Juniors went to Germany needing a win (after a draw in Buenos Aires) and beat Borussia M. by a score of 3-0. Granted, Borussia was not Liverpool, but they were the Champions Cup runner up and they were a worthy representative of European football, boasting players like Vogts and Bonhof among others. Boca Juniors won the Libertadores and the IC and not one of its players made the national team which won the WC in 78, which shows how deep Argentine talent was at the time. As far as why the SA teams were so much more interested in competing than the Europeans were, I can think of many reasons. Money, exposure for the players, respect, and not least the fact that the winning the IC meant a lot more to the fans of the South American clubs.
Regarding Borussia`s meeting with Boca Juniors. While the first match in Buenos Aires was held in March 1978 (ended 2-2), the second leg wasn`t played until August 1978. At that time, Bonhof had already left for Valencia, Vogts was completely out of form (had played an awful World Cup by his standards), and the team of Borussia as a whole stood at the beginning of a terrible season, which ended with last-minute safe from relegation in May 1979. The Borussia of the 1978-79 season, which got beat by Boca Juniors 3-0 was not the same of the previous season (1977-78), or that of the pre-previous season (1976-77). Also, the second-leg against Boca Juniors was looked at by Borussia as a pre-season preparation match (it was held at Karlsruhe`s Wildpark Stadium). This coupled with Borussia`s awful form that season may explain the 0-3 stuffing by Boca Juniors. I assume Boca wouldn`t have found it that easy to beat Borussia if the second-leg had been played in the 1977-78 season (when Borussia finished runners-up in the Bundesliga). And besides all this, it was still the Copa winner vs. the Euro Cup beaten finalist. Beaten European finalists have met actual Copa winners five times altogether - something that quite distorted the outcome of some of these matches. If the actual Euro winners had not decline to meet their Argentine or Uruguayan counterparts, the outcome of these matches (4:1 for S.A.) would probably have looked slightly different. Euro winners that declined to play Copa winners were 2xAjax, 1xBayern, 1xLiverpool and 1xNottingham, their place was taken by Panathinaikos, an ageing Juventus, Atletico (which managed to beat the Copa winner!), an out-of-form Borussia M'Gladbach and Malmö FF. Another thing that has to be considered when the World Club Cup outcomes are discussed, is that during the 1960s, four play-offs had to be played to determine the winner. Three of these four play-offs were held in South America, and more, not only on South American soil, but - in the case of Penarol in 1961 and Santos in 1963 - in their own stadiums before their own fans, while the only time a play-off was held in Europe, it was an unpopular Internazionale having to play at the Bernabeu stadium, which was more of a disadvantage than an advantage. So there!
Hehehe. If you want me to be picky I can tell you that Boca Juniors wasn't exactly tearing it up in the second half of 1978 either. The team which beat Borussia 3-0 finished barely above .500 in the National tournament, and they lost big to Gimnasia (5-1) and Huracan (4-1). But I have to admit that they took the Intercontinental cup very seriously. As far as Bonhof, I didn't remember that he was gone before the second leg. I remember that he was a key member of the team which came to Buenos Aires, (and in fact he scored a goal), so I can see that they would miss him if he didn't play in the rematch. So yeah, I concede the obvious, that SA teams took the match much more seriously than the Euro teams did at the time.
here some videos of Brazil's clubs winning the Intercontinental Cup... http://redeglobo6.globo.com/TVGlobo...porte_video_popup/0,12320,34000-33997,00.html http://redeglobo6.globo.com/TVGlobo...porte_video_popup/0,12320,34002-33997,00.html http://redeglobo6.globo.com/TVGlobo...porte_video_popup/0,12320,34003-33997,00.html http://redeglobo6.globo.com/TVGlobo...porte_video_popup/0,12320,34004-33997,00.html
Pele, was more complete, effective, regular, dominant and successful than Maradona. Rationally there is not much to discuss.