Pelé is way overrated as a scorer

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by lessthanjake, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Yeah quality varies. Some is pretty much unreadable.
     
  2. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    At least I can blame Pelé's crazy comment on being senile. @carlito86

    Now as for Ronaldo ... :whistling:

    “It isn't right to name someone specific but I can say that this is the best group in which I've played. Here, we are a squad, elsewhere, some players feel bigger than the others, instead here, everyone is on the same level, they are humble and want to win.

    If Dybala or Mandzukic don't score, they are still happy and they smile. It's really nice and I can see the difference. In Madrid they are humble but here I feel they are more so. It is very different from Madrid; this is a family."
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #353 PuckVanHeel, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
    I'll try to find back the FourFourTwo article. One of the problems is also that there are vastly conflicting newspaper reports, more so than other countries.

    But at least Tropeiro backs up (approximately) what I said above on the probable numbers.


    I can't find it back right now except for this (which tries to be kind of an Elo rating for individual players; it is related to team-mate quality and opposing players level; late 90s/early 00s Juventus players don't score well there lol)
    http://www.goalimpact.com/blog//2015/11/top-100-all-time.html
    (note: for Puskas it has only La Liga, Spanish domestic cup + international games for club and country; for Cruijff only post-1973, excluding the NASL, plus the international club and country games)

    Ultimately though, one has to check it with the underlying numbers. We know Puskas was there since 1959 when Real Madrid went 121 games unbeaten at home (between 1957 to 1965), while Di Stefano missed a number through injuries in the middle of that streak. Next to his international games (for club and part of a dominant country team), it rings a bell when he ends up higher than AdS by metrics of that type.

    Cruijff has the all-time highest win percentage for the Eredivisie and also the highest win percentage in Primera Division for his era and the era after that (until ironically, the advent of Quintre del Buitre and then his own return as manager).

    Real and Atletico Madrid divided the titles among them, but had both also a few seasons where they finished 6th, 8th, 10th etcetera, 'destroying' the win percentages of the involved (star) players. Cruijff finished 2nd three times, 1st once and 3rd once (Barca in the Simonsen/Schuster/Maradona era 1979-1984 finished 4th to 6th). So intuitively it adds up (when four tournament MVPs were playing there; Netzer, Kempes, Caszely, Cruijff himself).

    Then add in how poorly those teams did when he didn't play (both domestically and in Europe), and his multiple deep runs in knockout competitions (for 'player Elo' type of systems that helps, next to contemporary players), and it all doesn't go against logic I'd say, in my humble view.

    Show Spoiler
    League 1973-1978

    With Cruijff in the team: G139 79W 28D 32L = 1.34 points per game
    Without Cruijff in the team: G31 9W 12D 10L = 0.97 points per game

    Overall 1973-1978 (league + domestic cup + Europe)

    With Cruijff in the team: G180 102W 38D 40L = 1.34 points per game
    Without Cruijff in the team: G34 9W 14D 11L = 0.94 points per game

    For the national team he missed a few games between his debut and retirement:
    [....]
    This makes: 11W 7D 12L - 0.97 points per game (1.10 goals per game; 1.00 goals against per game)

    Whereas with him they achieved 31W 9D 8L - 1.47 points per game (2.54 goals per game; 0.81 goals against per game)

    Thus, in a more sophisticated model that corrects for home venue, strength of opponent and all the rest it is not really a surprise that he comes out reasonably well.


    What about Ajax? (until 1973)


    It is difficult to say how the value would be affected when also the Ajax years are included. The longest consecutive absence was during the 1970-71 season where he missed the first 10 games and Ajax was sixth in the table at his return (5W 3D 2L) - except for a brief 15 minutes cameo where his injury returned and had to be subbed out again.

    League 1964 - 1973

    With: 189 win, 25 draws, 23 losses – 403/237 = 1.700 points per game
    Without: 33 win, 13 draws, 15 losses – 79/61 = 1.295 points per game

    Domestic Cup 1964 - 1973

    With 30W 1D 1L
    Without 3W 4L

    Where the registered draw forced a replay match, and all losses meant elimination (except for the 1968 final, which was just a lost game). The cup match they lost with him playing took place in the 1968-69 season against Feijenoord (1-2 loss).

    Total 1964 - 1973 (league + cup + Europe)

    With 252W 32D 33L - 536/317 = 1.69 points per game
    Without 38W 15D 22L - 91/75 = 1.21 points per game


    This also includes the Intertoto games (1W vs 1W 2D) next to the other European games (1W 3L without him playing). Another thing is that it is obviously not sensitive to substitutions, such as a 22th minute substitition against Trnava where he got kicked out of the game (Trnava scored the winning goal briefly after).
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Good to know. Makes assesment of Brazilian players outside of World Cups a bit of a guesswork.

    That's the stat I had in mind. Thanks for posting the writeup. :thumbsup:
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #355 carlito86, Dec 11, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
    Dude we’d have to create a new forum to list the jokes told by Pele

    Diego Maradona 2014
    While presenting this year's Ballon d'Or to Cristiano Ronaldo, Pele uttered his name as 'Cristiano Leonardo'. This just shows where he belongs."
    He took the wrong pill. Instead of taking the pill for before bedtime, he took his morning pill. He got confused. I suggest that next time he takes the right medication and that he changes his doctor."

    :laugh::laugh::laugh::whistling:

    I remember him saying he’d recieved a “revelation from God” that Cristiano Ronaldo would win the 2008 Ballon D’Or
    Maybe he could confused again and thought he was the messiah
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is not exactly the article I meant, but here is a shorter one:

    [​IMG]
    (click to enlarge)

    Obviously the margin of error for penalties is even higher as counting the goals. But as said, Tropeiro his numbers back up what I said above: likely around 100 penalties or perhaps slightly higher (111 penalties); a share that is not as high as Zico; etc.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    .... there is consequentially a small possibility that he scored his 1000th goal before or after the 'official' occasion.

    https://www.marca.com/2013/02/17/en/football/international_football/1361124326.html
     
  8. RMAmethyst

    RMAmethyst New Member

    Dec 26, 2018
    I agree with you and I am sure anyone else who also watched enough games from Pelé will agree with me.

    The huge number of goals makes people to think that he was a goalscorer kind of player, but he was more a playmaker. It was insane how he cleared any play, how he made everything looks easy. Pele was an impressive goalscorer, but his dribbling and playmaking were something else.
     
  9. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    This blog has lineups/goalscores about Brazilian competitions.
    https://brfut.blogspot.com/

    I think it's taken from Folha de S. Paulo, another source that can be used is Jornal dos Sports.

    So from what I've seen Pepe was Santos penalty taker up until 62 or 63. Pelé could have easily added 10 more goals to his tally each year if given penalty duty.
    Just think that's shocking given how Pelé has the reputation today that he did everything possible to statpad his goals and it was his statistical goalscoring peak.
     
    celito repped this.
  10. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Very good find. Good job ! Basically proves my theory.
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  12. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This comp appeared on my YouTube feed and it’s friggin insane

    the main issue I have with Pele is there is no way to establish the quality of many of the teams he scored against and if they were scored in friendlies or competitive matches
    If it were the latter he would hands down be the undisputed GOAT and even a tier above Messi

    However over 40% of his career goals fall under the former category so there is every chance that many of the crazy things he did on this comp are also goals/dribbles scored or performed in this context
     
  14. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Irrefutable proof Pele was Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldo, Romario all rolled into one :ROFLMAO:

    Many of those you can identify as being against good teams of the era. Regardless, the skills and versatility shown (as an attacker) with Pele are undeniable. I guess all you're looking for is consistency. Because there is plenty of proof he performed against big teams.
     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    A lot of the defending was also hilarious.It literally looked like the defence were playing standing statues

    Btw I was looking up on garrincha the other days and frankly he has to be the single most overrated player in South American football history
    literally his game compromised of dribbling a drunk/beer bellied/semi pro defender and whipping in a cross from the byline.
    The types of crosses that even Cafu(who could barely cross) could do let alone Jorginho/Marcelo
     
  16. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Germany
    Jan 3, 2018
    Iirc Bella Kona was a member of this forum. I remember when he and some Brazilian fanboy known as James used to post lot of Pele compilation football videos here.
     
  17. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Glad I'm not the only one who made that observation. :thumbsup:
    His dribbling in the '62 WC wasn't even effective. Scored most goals with long range shots.
     
  18. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I guess WC 58 and 62 was a Sunday league...

    Too little is available from Garrincha on video. His dribbling doesn’t seem like what you would think of a great dribbler today or from the 70s on. He seemed to have an extremely fast first few steps and beat defenders from the wing with that asset . 2 goals in 58 final came from that move .

    His 62 goals didn’t come from dribbling indeed , but I think it’s credit to him he changed his game once Pele was hurt and ended up being very influential with an aspect of the game he wasn’t known for .
     
  19. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    How do you know that’s James ? He was rally annoying .
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #370 carlito86, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    Full matches are very hard to come by but for a player of his time there is still a remarkable amount of footage to go on

    14 min of garrincha which is about as long the El Beatles comp that has been circulating the net for a few years(on George best if you hadn’t already guessed)

    The space being awarded here by defenders is criminal
    there is an argument that they couldn’t even get near him or that is weird dribbling style made him unpredictable
    Even so it just looks comical because modern football is focused on pressing and for such a threat as garrincha he would be man marked out of a game (particularly in maradonas day)

    Garrincha was a totally one dimensional player particularly for an elite winger I have yet to see him effectively playmaking through the middle like George best or even Luis figo
    On football forums I have often encountered this claim

    “he did some crazy moves that today you would't see. Stuff that only players ahead of their time could like dribbling past a whole team and then come back and dribble more.”

    As of yet I haven’t seen any evidence for this
    TBH honest it sounds like It came from the Brazilian equivalent of the Arabian nights
     
  21. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    #371 schwuppe, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    I don't question his achievements or that he was overall a fantastic player for his time. However Garrincha is the only older legends I've watched where I really get the impression that his skillset wouldn't work well in a different era.

    You're not wrong, but I guess his overall playstyle wouldn't vary much? Just not very fond of his decision making and ball hogging.
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Mane was the epitome of a ball hogger(to his credit at least his end product justified his ball hogging in WC 62)
     
  23. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I agree . He wouldn’t fit today’s game. He’d have to change a lot.
     
  24. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Germany
    Jan 3, 2018
    What happened to James?
     
  25. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Would he even make it to the top level in today's game?

    Given how demanding managers are nowadays, I wonder if a player like Garrincha (or even Romario) would even be accepted by the Klopp or Guardiola or Simeone of this world.

    Doesn't help that Messi and Ronaldo has raised the bar for professionalism required of the team's star player. Being the best doesn't excuse lack of professionalism anymore. In fact, you are expected to set an example for the rest of the team.

    I can only see him accepted into teams like PSG or playing for a manager like Wenger.
     

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