Pelé is way overrated as a scorer

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by lessthanjake, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    D31AABB2-22CB-435B-ACBB-6D41603E75C2.gif
     
  2. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That's gonna be hard to find. But many of the TV stations had some sort of fire in the 60s-90s for whatever reason. There are a couple of pages in Portuguese referencing them. Could also be a case of many tapes just plain lost or recorded over. I am not even sure all games were recorded by cameras back then. The TV station that I think covered games back then went out of business in the early 80s.

    But man, if you're going to think everything is a marketing / conspiracy ploy, nothing will probably satisfy your hunger here. Do you doubt he even scored that many goals even in what you consider the weak Paulista league ? I don't see why as there is plenty of footage proving he scored at or close to his typical rate even at the highest competitive levels.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  3. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #328 Tropeiro, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    This is dishonest data [Pelé's number of assists is already wrong for the Brazilian NT, imagine so for Santos and it by OPTA definition, not counted rebounds etc, minutes then... his source (if I can call that as a source) is completely garbage] + imo unfair comparison... I think he is using Opta data assists for many players and Opta + all kind of rebounds assists or whatever he wants to bump Messi stats in relation to other players here.... making the comparison unfair and dishonest:

    [​IMG]


    Also, Carlitos was suggesting 170 PK Goals for Pelé and now it became ~400PK Goals (30% of all Pelé's goal in friendlies etc)... I've source of only 111 PK Goals from ~1300 Goals from Pelé, a trustworthy source (which may contain some errors, but still seems be honest to me)..

    The counter: NOTHING! he has nothing in his hands, just stupid comments as ever. Carlitos, this is a serious site, we will not spread lies and misinformation, right?

    These are the misinformation and lies.


    On the other hand, this is a serious table that I did honestly and can be easily verified (all about OFFICIAL MATCHES):

    [​IMG]

    And this is a honest info about the players in the question:

    GOAL/CONTRIBUTION

    OFFICIAL GAMES (WITH ALL PENALTIES)

    1.1) ZICO 1983-1984 UDINESE (COPPA ITALIA AND SERIE A) = 43.63
    1) PELÉ, 58-65 SANTOS = 42.58
    2) ZICO, 74-83 FLAMENGO = 39.50
    3) CRISTIANO RONALDO, REAL MADRID = 38.68
    4) MESSI, 09-10 17-18 BARCELONA = 37.30
    5) PUSKAS, REAL MADRID = 33.98
    6) PLATINI, JUVENTUS ITALIA SERIE A = 29.18
    7) MARADONA, NAPOLI = 28.67
    8) PUSKAS, HONVED = 28.56

    NON-PK GOALS

    1) PELÉ, 58-65 SANTOS = 37.93
    2) ZICO, 83-84 UDINESE SERIE A AND COPPA ITALIA = 36.36
    2.1) ZICO, 74-83 FLAMENGO = 32.68
    2) MESSI, 09-10 17-18 BARCELONA = 32
    3) CRISTIANO RONALDO, REAL MADRID = 31.46
    4) PLATINI JUVENTUS SERIE A = 24.89
    5) MARADONA NAPOLI = 17.45

     
  4. Trachta10

    Trachta10 New Member

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Sorry for bad english... ;)
    Some research i made a few day ago

    In all the games played by Pelé, his clubs and national team made 3782 goals in 1366 games, that's 2,769 goals per game.
    Pelé generated on average 1,311 goals per game, that means that on average he generates 47.33% of the goals in his teams

    let's look at Maradona

    In 678 games (I count them one by one, probably with some incorrect ones, but it does not affect the average) their clubs and national team made 1087 goals, that's 1,603 goals per game (incredibly low)
    Maradona generated on average 0,844 goals per game (0,924 per 90 minutes)
    Maradona generated 52,65% of the goals in his teams (57,61% if I count the average per 90 minutes)

    In the case of Lionel Messi (a little outdated) I count 1847 goals made by his clubs and national team in 768 matches, that's 2,405 goals per game.
    Messi in those 768 games (exact numbers) made 619 goals and 310 assists, an avegare of 1,2096 goals generated per game (if I count the minutes the number is 1,340 per 90 minutes played)
    Messi generated 50,26% of the goals, or 55,72% being fair.

    Summary, goal contribution in their clubs:
    Diego Maradona: 57,61%
    Lionel Messi: 55,72%
    Pelé: 47,33%
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  5. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #330 Tropeiro, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    Messi for Barcelona:
    567 Goals and 222 Assists= 831/1655 = 47,67%

    https://www.thefinalball.com/xray.php?jogador_id=10592&jogador_na_equipa_id=40&filter_match=in_with
    https://www.transfermarkt.pt/lionel-messi/leistungsdatenverein/spieler/28003
    Messi for Argentina
    65 Goals and 42 Assists = 107/236 45,33%

    https://www.thefinalball.com/xray.php?jogador_id=10592&jogador_na_equipa_id=814&filter_match=in_with
    https://www.transfermarkt.pt/lionel-messi/nationalmannschaft/spieler/28003

    Messi 553 Non-PK Goals and 264 Assists / 1891 Goals = 43,20%


    Pelé almost completed stats for Santos (1957-1974)
    645 Goals + 245 Assists = 890/1716 = 51,86%

    https://www.thefinalball.com/xray.php?jogador_id=5733&jogador_na_equipa_id=2254&filter_match=in_with
    Pelé for Brazil
    77 Goals and AT LEAST 33 assists by OPTA (probably a bit more) = 110/233 = at least 47,21%.

    https://www.thefinalball.com/xray.php?jogador_id=5733&jogador_na_equipa_id=816&filter_match=in_with
    Pelé assists here (Post 95): Post http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/top-free-kick-takers-of-all-time.1980801/page-4
    + at least (at least) 3 considered by OPTA/Transfermarkt because it also happened in the WC and they are counted, one of them a clear pass vs Sovied Union in 1958:
    8:50


    Pelé 644 Non-PK Goals + 288 Assists 932/1949 = 47,81%


    Maradona with Argentina: 34 goals (3PK), 28 assists in 91 games (137 Goals) = 45,25%
    https://www.thefinalball.com/xray.php?jogador_id=5297&jogador_na_equipa_id=814&filter_match=in_with
    Maradona's peak with Napoli:
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Armando_Maradona#Clubes_2
    115 Goals and 77 Assists = 192 out of least 401 Napoli Goals (no counted 4 Napoli Matches) = 47,88%
    https://www.thefinalball.com/xray.php?jogador_id=5297&jogador_na_equipa_id=3735&filter_match=in_with
    Maradona for Barcelona = 50.81%
    38 Goals, 24 Assists = 62 out of 122 Barcelona Goals

    https://www.thefinalball.com/xray.php?jogador_id=5297&jogador_na_equipa_id=40&filter_match=in_with

    Maradona for Argentina, Barcelona, Napoli (his peak) 132 Non-PK Goals + 129 Assists 261/660 = 39,54%


    Pelé (47,81%) > Messi (43,20%) > Maradona (39,54%)


    Goal contribution
    Over 40% of the Team Goals when playing:

    Pelé 8 Times, Cristiano Ronaldo 3 Times, Messi 2 Times, Zico at least one time with Udinese (probably more with Flamengo), Maradona 0 in his peak.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @carlito86 It has been mentioned that Pelé was not Brazil's nor Santos official PK taker. At Santos, I've seen it mentioned that earlier it was Pepe. Later years it was Carlos Alberto Torres. With that info, I searched in within 1 min I found a couple of examples of both of them taking a PK during a game (with Pelé on the field). I have no reason to believe that's a lie.

    For Brazil I think you can already see that most of his goals were not from the spot. From the video you of 60+ goals you posted earlier I think I saw 2 or 3 scored from the spot.

    @ :45


    @ 2:46
     
  7. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Would be unthinkable today
    Cruyff also didn't take penalties right?
     
  8. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I am not sure about Cruyff.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    @celito this guy is completely out of control
    Is it me or has posted the same message 5 times on the last two pages
    I know he respects you as I noticed when you told him to lower his font size

    So for the interest of preventing this thread becoming complete hogwash have a word with him please
    Thanks
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    If you show me where I said 30% of Pelés goals were penalties I will leave this forum right now and never come back
    If not I want an immediate apology
     
  11. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Leave me out of it !! When you guys start going too deep into stats, I lose interest and don't read. :ROFLMAO:
     
  12. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @carlito86

    BTW ... Pelé did earn one of those PKs.

    I don't know where Pelé scored all of those PKs. Perhaps he took them when the official taker was off the field or he took them mostly in those international club friendlies. Some very deep research would be needed which is probably needless to be honest.
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    “During his career he played 709 official matches and scored exactly 400 goals. Originally schooled as a winger and out-and-out striker in a 4-2-4 system, he became at the end of the 1960s one of the archetypical false-nines. 10 goals of these 400 in total are penalty-kicks. It is estimated that he made around 40 goals with his head. The number of goals scored out of a free kick is negligible (estimitated as not much higher than five)”
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/johan-cruyff-matches-and-goals-scored.1865250/
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    2:51-5:20
    31 penalties recorded out 373 goals

    5:20-7:58
    35 FKs out of 373 recorded goals


    6 penalties+1 FK out of 26 recorded goals

    From what is recorded he scored 37 pens out of 400 goals
    If we assume he maintained this exact ratio across for his 1200 goals he would have 111 penalties but that is just an educated guess
    Could be way more or even less
     
  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #340 Tropeiro, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    Info about 111 including friendlies etc, Coutinho about 73 (48 in Pelé's time 1957-1965, 47 between 1958-1965, just official matches). Pelé scored 45 in official matches in that period. No info about all PK Goals from Santos in that time.

    [​IMG]

    Btw, comparing players from different era is complicated:

     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You keep on saying Pele did this Pelé did that
    Where is the verifiable Source material?
    if you can’t find it then all that have spammed is pure speculation

    Nobody has access to all of Pelés matches
    PERIOD
    you are literally quoting from another person who is as clueless as you are.
     
  17. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Most newspapers at that time didn't give the exact description of the plays, unless you look in various sources and have luck (and it is a long time work to check all sources of that period), but in most if not in all, you will have a description of how the goal was scored.
    The source of my data seems to be very honest and credible and match with other player's numbers. Now if you prefer to believe what makes your opinions safer or want to do an ultra-revisionism to prove that this information is false, I support.

    To start with, a good job would be if you counted all Goals from all Matches when Cruyff was playing, can you do it for me? Puck surely has the numbers of assists (probably stricter than the assists that an Opta or a Transfermark could give, though) and goals from the Dutch player and maybe we can use this data.
    Separate the data by seasons, please.
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #343 carlito86, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    According to data collected by puck Cruyff scored 400 goals(10 pens) and 226 assists in official matches (with the possibility he could have significantly more that he hasn’t been able to access from his games during his first stint ar Ajax)
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/johan-cruyff-matches-and-goals-scored.1865250/page-65
     
  19. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Yeah I just remember that Neeskens scored a few PK goals in WC74.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #345 PuckVanHeel, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
    For Pelé we simply don't know the exact number because there's lacking an adequate record of facts (something that's still true for today's Brazil, let alone the 1950s).

    There was a very good FourFourTwo article a couple of years ago. What we know for sure is that he had 6 penalty goals for Brazil (8% of his total), and I think also the Copa Libertadores is pretty much clear. It's a safe bet that he had around 100 penalty goals in his career, maybe slightly more (including the friendlies of course, since that is always included when ppl talk about Pelé). That's still a very low proportion compared to many other greats for sure (Baggio, Maradona etc. lower than Zico too). Anyone who says there is an exact number is lying.


    Cruijff has two penalty goals for Barcelona (1 in league, 1 in UEFA Cup) and then four more in the NASL. Some also include the famous Cruijff-Olsen penalty, making it seven.

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/johan-cruyff-matches-and-goals-scored.1865250/page-80#post-34743595

    It was also a rare sight for him to take a free kick. There is a recorded free kick goal by him against Finland, and also one against then-champions Atletico Madrid.

    I don't think he cared much about scoring goals and even saw it as a way to prolong his career and be more valuable (= adding more wins). There are famous instances where he was criticized for not scoring enough, with him then bagging in one or two the next game as he promised.

    His scoring rate isn't particularly amazing (although after 1973 he was midfielder), but his 'wins above replacement' quite clearly is (with/without; also factoring in the many semi finals and top two finishes). That is as good as anyone in history.
     
  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #346 carlito86, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
    Pelés Brazil 1957-1971
    235 team goals in 92 apps:
    2.56 goals per match

    Cristiano Ronaldo Portugal
    304 team goals in 154 apps
    1.97 goals per match


    Direct goal contribution during peak period

    Pelé 1957-1965(8 year span)
    52 goals out of 132 team goals in 50 matches:1.04
    39% direct involvement assisted by garrincha,didi,Gérson etc


    Cristiano Ronaldo 2010-2018(8 year span)
    62 goals out of 172 team goals in 85 matches:0.73 gpg
    36% direct involvement assisted by Nani,moutinho,quaresma etc

    Now Imagine reverse roles


    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/cronaldo-intlg.html

    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/pele-intlg.html
     
  22. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #347 Tropeiro, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
    The xG is a FK is much lower than a PK though. I consider free-kicks an art of the best finishers, even more than the penalties.

    PK is ~0,75 - 0,80 xG
    Calculating the value of different types of shots
    Let's start with penalties. Between 2011/12 and 2015/16 there were 443 penalties in the Premier League and of those 347 were scored - meaning that on average 78.3% of penalties resulted in a goal. We therefore assign to a penalty an expected goal value of 0.783
    https://www.pinnacle.com/en/betting...ted-goals-for-soccer-matches/JESJH3RKXCMUF9TY
    https://www.pinnacle.com/en/betting-articles/Soccer/expected-goals-explained/B8Q2HGJ7XMJRZ58C

    https://www.infogol.net/pt-br/blog/education/an-introduction-to-expected-goals-11112016

    About PK Goals from Cruyff it includes the shoot-out and friendlies too.

    Barcelona 6 x 0 Cercle Brugge (1 PK) 1973
    Barcelona 1 x 1 Feyenoord (P:4x3) (1PK) 1975
    Barcelona 3 x 3 Sevilla (1 PK) 1977
    Barcelona 5 x 1 Badajoz (1 PK) 1977
    Barcelona 5 x 1 Steaua Bucarest (1 PK) 1977
    Barcelona 1 x 1 AZ (P:5x4) (1 PK) 1977
    Los Angeles Aztecs 2 x 0 Vacouver Whitecaps (1 PK) 1979
    Los Angeles Aztecs 7 x 1 Seattle Sounders (1 PK) 1979
    Washington Diplomats 5 x 4 San Jose Earthquakes (1 PK) 1980
    Washington Diplomats 2 x 0 Vancouver Whitecaps (1 PK) 1980
    Washington Diplomats 2 x 1 Tampa Bay Rowdies (1 PK) 1980

    it includes the shoot-out and friendlies too.

    About Pelé 111 PK Goals (some sources says he missed ~25 PK)

    About Zico my source said he scored 138 PK Goals of 844 Goals including friendlies that is 16,35%, Placar commented (about 1988) about 116 PK Goals of 710 Goals that is 16,33%, he missed about 11.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    For curiosities sake I looked up random games from the State Championship in
    Folha de Sao Paulo (archives are available for free online) and there were writeups/scorers listed. So maybe it might be possible to get a semi-accurate number (I suppose not all games were covered) if someone has way too much time on his hands.
     
  24. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Is there an actual stat for that I remember you posting something similar....
     
  25. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Very hard to read. It's very blurry.
     

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