Pelé is way overrated as a scorer

Probably neither Puskas was a organizer or a man who is responsible for distributing the ball.

Pelé, Puskas, Maradona, Zico and Messi were all creators and scorers, responsible to create chances and for finishing the ball. Platini and Cruyff I already can see more of organizer/distributing the ball, but they were still creators and scorers after all, just as Cristiano Ronaldo, Eusébio, Romario, Van Baster, Ronaldo and Muller were goalscorers in their peaks, not distributors or creators.

 

This is all bullshit
Post prime Puskás had more big game club performances with Real Madrid then prime Pele did with Santos
And that’s a fact you can take to the bank

I don’t need advanced statistics to formulate an opinion on a player who started his career in the 1940s(pre war)
The propaganda regarding Pele being an attacking midfielder has only emerged in recent years
In Brazil 70 he wasn’t even the 3rd best passer on his own team and I don’t give a damn about chances created stats
Cristiano Ronaldo had more “key passes” than Messi in quite a few seasons it didn’t mean he was even remotely comparable as a passing specialist
Everybody knows the true playmaker of Brazil 70 was Gerson
And The true playmaker of Brazil 58 and 62 was Didí

The list of big game performances that I have researched on Puskás would take a lengthy thread to discuss
And of course he had many big performances for Honvéd that I’m unaware of
Prime Puskás was a main playmaker for his club side in Hungary his involvement therefore cannot be measured by goal+assist involvements
That is a metric predominantly used to judge forwards(strikers)
And he wasn’t that

The entire premise of your argument is built on dust(it’s totally meaningless)
Btw I don’t have to backtrack on anything considering on this page you claimed ronaldo hasn’t scored in a big match since 2013 which is totally LOL worthy

 

Source: Your mitomaniac and bipolar ass.

The truth: Puskas has no place in this discussion. Puskas was scoring a high scoring time, he hasn't the same goal contribution rate than Pelé at his peak!

 

Although it is disputed When maradonas prime actually was the majority opinion seems to be post 86
Maradona being a forward for Napoli is revisionism at its worst
Post 1987 He sat behind two strikers in 3-4-3 either behind careca and carnevale (or zola who came at the end)
Maradona was the attacking midfielder for this team who sat deep not a forward AT ALL
Even in italia 90 he played deep all the time with the exception of the final were he was more advanced as a SS just behind Gustavo Dezotti

In World Cup 1986 and before he was a half forward/half playmaker or a “ponta de lanca”
when he lost his pace and his physical condition deteriorated he sat deep and dictated play as strictly a AM

I have never seen Pele excell in this role or even play in this role (nor have I seen zico)
I have seen Messi though and in fact On quite a few occasions(even before 2014-15)

This is a performance that is beyond the capabilities/skillset of Pele and no amount of stats manipulation/maximisation to 100% will change this fact

 

You are really trying too hard.

 

You should try a bit harder instead of manipulating statistics to make your Brazilian idols seem greater then they actually were
Zico is allegedly now an equal goalscorer to ronaldo/Messi LMFAO
A player who never scored a single goal or won MOTM in a World Cup/copa América semifinals or final

This is a player who played with falcao the best player of The best league in Europe at the time
Socrates,Eder etc how the hell do you fail to make your mark on Brazilian history with this support cast?

His career crowning jewel was clouded in controversy as vegan clearly pointed out
He scored goals against demonstrably inferior opposition in the Copa Libertadores 81
If you think scoring 4 goals against a team that finished runner up in the Chilean league is comparable to scoring against major European club teams at the highest level than you are more clueless than I originally thought

 

It is worth mentioning Puskás being involved in a lesser percentage of his teams total goals can be easily be explained by the fact that he was supplying Sándor Kocsis with many goals in Hungary and for the NT
Kocsis just happens to be striker who scored at a superior rate than Pele
He did this at club level in Hungary and for the NT

So while Puskás was scoring at this crazy rate he was also directly supplying a striker who scored at the same rate
Anyways it doesn’t matter as Pelés FIFA pals recognised Puskás as the greatest goal scorer of the 20th century
He is the best from the last century OFFICIALLY
your opinion that he is excluded from the conversation is just that...an opinion(and a completely unsubstantiated one at that)

 

Of course Zico was a excellent Goalscorer, one of the most prolific of all time. As well a excellent passer and very very good dribbler. He didn't played against Paraguay in 1979 and never played one World Cup semifinal, vs France 1986, eliminated shootout, vs Italy when he made a brillant assist that could be a decisive assist but the Brazilian defence conceded 3 goals.

Of all forms, Messi and Cronaldo have no better international career than Zico or Eusebio or Puskas and much less compared to Platini, Maradona, Romario or Ronaldo. Leave out of this question Pele or Garrincha. International carrer wasn't a factor for Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo, specially not as Goalscorers, which is the theme of this thread.
Messi, for example, is arguably the greatest loser among all the great stars of football in International Carrer, losing finals/decisive matches where he was expected to win (even like 0-3 vs Brazil final Cup America 2007, two times for Chile, one for Uruguay) and not making differences when it mattered in the WCs (vs Germany 2010 and 2014, even against Holland 2014, not one single assist or goal and just made something against France in 2018 when Argentina was already almost eliminated), he and his team even lost for teams outside the TOP 10. Even Vegan knows he is a loser with Argentina, a big loser. Read Post 59 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cruyff-is-superior-to-maradona.2020311/page-3 http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iii-national-team-performance/ Cronaldo then his best moment with Portugal,



nothing to talk.


PD Btw, Vegan is Zicophobic... Cobreloa was a novice team, but they were a very good team for South American standard:

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_da_América_de_1981#Grupo_B

and reached the final in 1982 too:

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_da_América_de_1982#Finais


And Zico replicated his form in Italian Serie A too.... PAY ATTENTION:

Zico had 45,7% (19 Goals/42 Goals in 24 Matches, Udinese scored 47 in 30 Matches btw) Goal contribution in 1983-1984 Serie A which is probably one of the highest* of all in 80's Serie A and even over his 39,5% in Flamengo. 19/42 = 45,2%. In the same year, Platini that scored 20 Goals in 83-84 had less Goal Contribution rate than Zico in that tournament, 20 Goals of 54 Juventus Goals in 28 Matches = 37%. 45,2 > 37


*THE HIGHEST IS PROBABLY IS OF HIS FORMER UDINESE TEAMMATE THE PROLIFIC GOALSCORER VIRDIS IN 1986/1987 WITH MILAN, TOP SCORER WITH 17 GOALS OF 31.

Now you know that Virdis was a Capocannoniere and played for Udinese too, strange... are you really Italian? I was thought that Italian knows who Virdis was. lol
IMO you are Indian, Pakistani or Portuguese.

Btw,

OFFICIAL GAMES (WITH ALL PENALTIES)

1.1) ZICO 1983-1984 UDINESE SERIE A = 45.2
1) PELÉ, 58-65 SANTOS = 42.58
2) ZICO, 74-83 FLAMENGO = 39.50
3) CRISTIANO RONALDO, REAL MADRID = 38.68
4) MESSI, 09-10 17-18 BARCELONA = 37.30
5) PUSKAS, REAL MADRID = 33.98
6) PUSKAS, HONVED = 28.56

International Games

Pelé 77 Goals of 232 International Goals = 33.18
Zico 52 Goals of 172 International Goals = 30.23
Cristiano Ronaldo 85 Goals of 305 International Goals = 27.86
Messi 65 Goals of 236 International Goals = 27.54
Puskas info about 80 Matches where he scored 80 Goals of 320 Hungary Goals = 25

Zico playing for the superteams of nowadays could make a gazillion of goals my friend, no mistake about that.


Btw,





As you can see Messi and Ronaldo's case is not special or unique, many great players of the past could make similar numbers. Messi and Ronaldo are playing in a super and high scoring teams with the biggest salaries of the world, the richest, Barcelona without Messi was capable of won WC (Spain in 2010), Real Madrid was capable too.

And btw, Cronaldo is not on Messi level of scoring too. He is clearly one level below.

 

Ferenc Puskás was old and past it and losing out to prime Kopa and Di Stéfano is no shame

Raymond Kopa also VERY arguably had a better tournament than Pele in World Cup 1958 with 4 goals+9 assists(Fontaine can thank him for his record that stands till today)

It is known Puskás was very generous to Di Stéfano In his first season (maybe he was scared to get on his bad side)
In the final day of the La Liga season 1958/59 being level with Di Stéfano for the pichichi he rounded the goalkeeper and passed the goal across an empty net for Di Stéfano to score
He then got injured before the European cup final which can probably explain his absence from the ballon dor podium

post prime Puskás is just a goal goalscorer who hardly ran and hardly participated in build up play.
Prime Puskás is a football god who scored at the rate of over a goal a game,directly assisted a legendary CF who scored at the rate of over 1gpg,dictated play from midfield positions with his world class vision
A complete attacker

 

You claimed no udinese player outplayed zico while he was there (you never mentioned scoring)
I said big deal zico is obviously a great player but he wasn’t exactly competing with great teammates for top dog position

Paolo Virdis being Capocannoniere means nothing.there are many examples of “flash in the pan” strikers winning the award including Olivier bierhoff ahead of ronaldo el fenomeno in his best season
Virdis was so great that he couldn’t even get 1 NT cap ahead of Paolo Rossi who looked like a god when he played Brazil but was nothing special in his career AT ALL

Udinese was a low scoring team and it is much easier to average a higher percentage involvement on a low scoring team than it is a high one
Alan shearers 1994/95 season shits all over any of zicos season in terms of goal+assist involvements
We can do the maths if you like

Your goal charts remind me of Benjamin netanyahus comedic graph about Iran’s WMDs

https://972mag.com/bibis-acme-bomb-at-unga-inspires-israeli-meme-artists/56636/

Being the totally disingenuous and dishonest poster that you are you still haven’t backtracked from your claim Cristiano ronaldo did not score a big goal since 2013 (And ludicrously presented inaccurate graphs to that effect)
If anyone’s integrity is in danger it is yours my friend not mine

 

You are doing exactly what you excused me of(ie Pivoting a lot)

lets debate the evidence and not my opinions which can be amended with the discovery of new information.
If it can be established beyond doubt Puskás was THE defining player of his time than I was mistaken for putting him in that 2nd tier
It seems to be a myth that he was one of histories greatest number twos
In the late 40s and first half of the 50s Puskás was the king Even though there were great players like zizinho,Pedernera, or even the remnants of the great river plate side of the mid 40s
I don’t believe Alfredo Di Stéfano really enters the equation yet as one of the very best players in the world at this time although he later became exactly that when he went to Real Madrid

Why is it even relevant why he never scored for Spain ?
Maybe he never really cared after all it was his adopted country and he had already cemented his status as an international legend with his actual country
I can’t claim to know the circumstances behind this but you are really reaching with this tangent.
Puskás international career was SEALED between 50-54 as leader of a legendary team
What he did or didn’t do with the Spanish NT after he was 35 years old is irrelevant

Pele didn’t even play professional football at 35 years old to put this into some perspective
(Unless you classify kicking the ball around with American college students as being competitive)

Pelé also never had to compete against the level of goal scorers Puskás did
Ferenc deak,Sándor Kocsis also scored at the same rate as Pele
This league had one the best playmakers in football history in hidegkuti,legendary winger Zoltán Czibor who was like a prime robben for Bayern playing as a WF
Not to mention Bozsik,Palotás and probably even more players I’m not even aware of
By the way these were all era defining players who played in one league the Hungárian league that you was so dismissive about before

Garrinchas peak was very short and Didí was a deep lying playmaker
No one scored at the rate of Pele in Brazil so he never had to share the limelight

Despite your doubts I can assure you there is no doubt whatsoever that Ferenc Puskás was the best player in the Hungárian league

Of all of us, he was the best. He had a seventh sense for soccer. If there were 1,000 solutions, he would pick the 1001st.
Nándor Hidegkuti

 

Let’s talk sense here
,after 62 who was a legitimately great attacker in the Campeonato Paulistao.
Between 62-65 the coast was clear for Pele to rule because garrinchas formed had rapidly declined and Didí was nowhere near as effective as he had been in the 50s
His trip to Spain was also short lived and by most accounts a faliure
(Maybe not his fault entirely because there was reportedly a “clash of personalities” between him and ADS in the locker room and of course he was being played out of position)

Pelés level of scoring probably hadn’t been seen in Brazil since Arthur Friedenreich so in one sense he was a phenomenon/unique within the context of his own league
At least 2 other players were scoring at the same rate as Puskás in the Hungárian league

And there was Zoltán Czibor Europe’s answer to jairzinho (and others I already listed)
This isn’t Serie A 1980s with just platini/maradona
Or later on maradona/van basten and for a very short time Gullit
There where many phenomenal players in the Hungárian league each could be considered the best on their own merits

Yet everyone knew Puskás had the extra quality on the ball even if he couldn’t win the individual awards
Players who played with and against him testified to this fact
(Hidegkuti I believe is the only player to have this distinction of playing against him at club level and with him at international level
And even he knew Puskás was competing against himself)

Why is Messi considered to be greater than ronaldo?
Because despite both players scoring at the same rate one player is capable of playing multiple forward and midfield roles
Prime Pelé was just behind countinho as a SS
Prime Crisriano Ronaldo played behind benzema/Higuaín or Rooney/tevez as a WF or wide midfielder depending on the tactics of SAF in any given game/season

It is logical therefore that prime Puskás is the only player to match the overall influence of Lionel Messi(except messi was a greater dribbler)
But I would say puskas was more of a midfield conductor in his scoring prime then Messi was under Guardiola
So overall I’m edging to Lionel Messi mainly due to his added dribbling threat but Puskás being an actual goat contender isn’t strange opinion.
A player who is considered The greatest goalscorer of all time,a player who owned big matches like no player ever did before (or after),defined his generation is very arguably deserving of this distinction

Btw it is very funny that you keep pointing to Puskás scoring in a high scoring era when compared to Pele(Pelé was a cross generational player and scored 100s of his goals in the 50s)

And even if he hadn’t then explain how in the 60s Eusebio scored at the same rate as Pele in a team and in a league that averaged less goals than Peles?

 

Pele was one of the best passers I have ever seen. His vision and his ability to release the ball quickly is impressive. Why are you watching 1970 WC. That's like watching CR7s Euro 16 and trying to make an informed decision about his playing abilities. Watch Pele for Santos in the 60s. I can link you a few games.

Of the Real Madrid games I have watched, there is nothing to me that indicates Puskas was much more than a goal scorer

 

The equivalent of this statement would be of the games you had seen of CR7 since 2013 nothing indicates he was much more than a goal scorer

I linked you a comp that shows Puskás in a completely different light to what we have seen of his post prime Real Madrid days
Puskás was NOT in his prime for Real Madrid let’s make that clear.
I’d advise you watch it as I found it thoroughly enjoyable

The performance of Pele vs racing Paris in 1960 that I have a feeling you are referring to is no different from what I’ve seen of players like Cristiano Ronaldo and Roberto Baggio do at their creative best

Ronaldo vs Aston Villa 2007/08
1 goal+3 assists in a 4-0 win


Roberto Baggio vs Parma 1994/95

3 assists that famously clinched The scudetto

There are other examples I could also pick from prime rivaldo(home vs Real Sociedad 98/99)etc
If you analyse prime Pele performances where he was at his creative best he still makes silly errors in his game (ie misplacing simple passes that true AMs would never/hardly do)


Prime playmaking version maradona 1987-1990 had a demonstrably more refined game and less error prone than Pele
Amongst Technical specialists Pele is never seriously mentioned amongst the best until recently when Brazilians fans got upset a bit
@ko242 im relatively young compared to a lot/most of you guys.
Since I was a kid I’ve always questioned things that don’t conform with verifiable facts
For example Diego Maradona comes with the reputation as a goat dribbler
For an uneducated fan that is major selling point

So now many years ago in my late teens i reviewed maradonas performances for Napoli post 87 where Neapolitans claimed he was the most outrageously gifted technician that ever stepped foot on the Italian mainland
I saw many examples of maradonas outrageous technical skills but hardly any of maradona going on a mazy run beating player after player
So really there were two versions of maradona
The young maradona for argentinos juniors,boca and Barcelona who dribbled a tonne,scored many solo goals, did outrageous things on a pitch,scored a lot relative to his position and was a World class passer

The mature maradona who’s physical condition had perhaps declined but who’s brain was better than it had ever been
A player with panoramic vision of the football field who could spot all options before anyone else could see them
Still a great technician with the best ball control perhaps ever (only bergkamp and zidane matches his first touch but maradona was more exquisite with his touch)
Ronaldinho could do maradona ball controls but OFF THE PITCH(on Nike commercials)

Just think ,as you claim to be a student of the game always willing to change your opinion if presented with the facts
Why is Pele never included in the discussion of most technically gifted players ever?
Why is Pele never included in the discussion about the most gifted dribblers?
(It has nothing to do with Eurocentric bias because SA players like garrincha,maradona,Messi,R9,jairzinho,zico,Tostao are all given consideration)
Pele was never unfairly ignored it’s just he was an amazing scorer in Brazil the likes they had never seen in the past 70-80 years
As a technical specialist he’s just not that amazing when compared to Brazilians from his own generation and many who came immediately after including zico,R9,Ronaldinho for example

 

Not really. Players age differently. I would bet that CR7 at his current age for Juventus expended more energy than Pele at 30 and older.

I only question one thing. Number 1, how many years does this comp cover?? These comps are short. Not like 30 minute one season comps of today.
Could you send me the comp again?

That's not the game I had in mind but you are delusional if you think CR7 was making passes like that consistently. CR7 was a crosser not a through ball specialist.
And I would not judge Pele's passing on any one game anyway. But even if I do, no player who is not good at passing can consistently make multiple top passes in 1 game.

I think most on this forum would agree that Pele was not one of the purest technical players in history. But technique implies many different areas. Shooting, left foot, right foot, passing, etc.

I appreciate fans who do their research on the history of the game and that's why we're all here on this forum. I still think Maradona is a goat level dribbler. Maybe not the best but on that level. In my opinion. Top 5 ever perhaps.

Good point. In Maradonas time at Napoli he wasn't very involved in games as some people may lead you to believe. Not on a consistent basis. His physical condition could be questioned as he obviously was not discipline about what he put into his body.

I 100% disagree. Zidane and Bergkamp were not the 2 players with a touch above all others. Completely disagree.

Pele is not in my opinion arguably one of the best pure technicians. BUT technique involves a number of things. Not just dribbling. There is technique in passing, first touch, and shooting. All round Pele was extremely technical. But I don't believe he was arguably one of the best Pure technicians. His ball handling was not the cleanest

 

@ko242

The Puskás comp
The playmaking section of the comp covers NT performances(I don’t think his matches for communist Hungary we’re televised but it’s safe to assume he was playing the same function for his club)

As for your other points
1.)the comp I listed of CR wasn’t just crosses,you are completely misrepresenting the reality of his performance
1.)He scored a goal nutmegging a defender with a back heel
2.)Made a cross assist
3.)Assisted a third goal with a 40 yard back heel pass
4.)Assisted a fourth goal with a through ball via a nutmeg
According to many his best ever performance in the premier league and it hard to argue against it even though there are other candidates

The versatility Pele showed as a passer is not uncommon amongst second strikers like baggio,rivaldo or playmaking wingers like dejan savecivic,Cristiano ronaldo 06-08 And figo(real Madrid)
Pelés passing game was to error prone and lacked enough versatility to be considered amongst the best ever
He was good but only relative to his position not when compared to true attacking midfielders or even some playmaking forwards like zico who was a whole level above(if not more)

And lastly from amongst top 100 all timers bergkamp/zidane/maradona are the crem dela creme when it comes to effortless ball control.
I’m sure you’d be able to come up with examples from less known players but as we know it was a FLUKE(they never meant it)

Antonio Cassano can enter this equation of ball control experts even if I struggle to look past his lacklustre career


Starts at 0:17
( Zidane said this was his best ever goal even if the CL final one was more famous)


We can debate about anything regarding zidanes career but when it comes to ball control it is a no brainier
Zidane was GOAT tier and I don’t really think he even realised how good he actually was (and still is if you see him in some friendlies and training sessions)
a lot of great technicians can be exaggerated when they express themselves with the ball
Zidane was effortless like it came naturally

 

Thanks for the comp.

I'm going to take this debate with Pele and passing further. You are missing a lot.
Nobody here needs to watch highlights of CR7. We are all old enough to have seen him from the time he was 18. CR7 was an elite crosser not a through passer

 

If you are talking about effortless ball control then I agree. But making technique look effortless doesn't mean you are head and shoulders above the rest in terms of technique.

The fact is, I could make a case that CR7 and Messi have better all round technique than Zidane. Not that i necessarily agree but a case could be made.
In actuality, it is more difficult to execute ball control in the offensive third than anywhere else on the field. Because you are always outnumbered in the offensive third which means you have less space. Messi and CR7 have a high level of displaying technique in the offensive third on several more occasions. Not just dead ball control but there first touch away from a defender when receiving a pass and then scoring from that touch. And not only that but at full speed! In addition, both players have dribbled in the offensive third a great number of times. Far outnumbering where Zidane would execute his dribbles.

Like I said, we could debate on and on, but CR7 and Messi have technique just as good as Zidane if not better.
I also think Ronaldinho's touch or technique is no less than Zidane.
When Ronaldinho juggles over the same defender 3 times in a row without the ball dropping while he is being pressured by another defender, that's what you call top technique. Because he can keep control of the ball IN THE AIR while being closed on by 2 defenders.
But then again, I'm not saying Zidane's technique is necessarily inferior to anyone's

 

When did Ronaldinho Gaúcho ever use his juggling for the purpose of the team?
Neymar gets a lot of stick for doing the same thing for “no apparent purpose except showboating”

What purpose did it serve when Ronaldinho perhaps did his most famous juggle vs athletic Bilbao in 2003/04

It’s of course very nice to watch but a multiple sombrero in this case doesn’t serve much purpose beyond entertaining the crowd
And this is what I mean by exaggerating ones technical ability.

Zidane only did what was necessary
and never went beyond,maybe out of respect for his opponents or maybe because it wasn’t in his repertoire (which I highly doubt btw because he was a highly skilled player in tight areas with many examples from juventus I Could show you)

Really I was only referring to zidanes 1st touch and nothing more.
In overall technical skillset many including Messi and ronaldo are ahead but in terms of ball control he is the top 3 I’ve personally seen

 

Not impressed at all with this in terms of playmaking. If anything, it shows what a great goal scorer he was. That goal at 7:50 is one of the best goals I've ever seen (I'm just talking about what I like).
It did show that he was capable of passing but nothing extraordinary. Unfortunately it was highlights from a time in which much wasn't recorded. Based on the limited games ive seen of Di Stefano, Di Stefano was a far better playmaker. No comparison to be honest.
BUT it does show also show that he can definitely play good football and can link up with other players if he needs to

 

What the f*&k???!!!
We are talking about technique!!! That's all we're are talking about not effectiveness.
the guy was pressured by 2 top professional players under immense pressure!!!! Have you ever played football? Do you know the technique that one has to have to juggle over the same man 3 times in a row, with contact, at the highest level between 2 defenders. That is ridiculous!!!!!
If you can perform a skill like that, then what kind of skill can't you perform. In terms of difficulty, it doesn't get much better than that.

 

I frankly disagree,in terms of first touch(what we are discussing before you went off on a tangent) nothing I have seen beats the instant and instinctive ball control zidane used in that goal he scored against Norway or the goal cassano scored against inter Milan

You can put franco baresi man marking zidane and he could not stop him in this instance
The ability to control and manipulate the direction of a long ball while it is still in mid air is imo technical ability of the highest order


Vegan posted a 1970s definition of technical ability that I thought was rather interesting