Paul Arriola at Swansea City (on loan from DC United)

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Howard the Drake, May 2, 2013.

  1. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley, Dempsey and Altidore have all at least produced for their MLS teams to at least some what justify the outlays.

    Bedoya, while not a total disaster, is no where near worth what he is being paid IMO. He just looks like a run of the mill MLS midfielder. In the MLS salary structure, it can be hard to recover from a mistake like this.
     
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  2. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not going to paint MLS with a broad brush here. Tends to not go over well.

    What I will point out is playing for Ben Olsen for that train wreck of a team which seems to kill player value/performance probably isn't the right move if Europe is in your plans.

    But I'd say at his age he should be moving upwards. Xolos to DCU is a massive step down. Hell, LAG would be a fair amount better. Replace Zardes with Arriola and join him with the Dos Santos brothers under Sigi. But if this is a 3-4 yr contract, that probably seals his fate. He'll be 25/26 when the contract is up and past any upside window.
     
  3. UnitedBorn

    UnitedBorn Member+

    Dec 7, 2015
    301
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Biased of course

    The team is putting forth effort to get better with the recent additions and the new stadium opening next year. DC United looks to be a team on the rise (or a train wreck in a nicer train).
     
  4. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I don't understand what your are arguing for here? Who said anything was guaranteed? Talk about straw men.

    I am disappointed a promising young player took the money grab and went to an inferior league with a poor level of play and a poor history of young player development.

    Do you think that a move to MLS is good for a young players development? You wouldn't rather see a young player develop in the Eredisivie like was rumored? That's nonsense.
     
  5. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Goff tweeted he is signed until the end of the 2019 season but the team holds an option year.
     
  6. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Is Hamid staying? Cause I don't see DC having all this $$$. They should be sending this on someone who can score.
     
  7. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I had read rumors some Dutch clubs were interested.
     
  8. UnitedBorn

    UnitedBorn Member+

    Dec 7, 2015
    301
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Between the new MLS jersey deal, revenues from the new stadium(suites etc) and the cash from the renewed Leidos sponsorship they have the cash
     
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  9. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are accusing others of a strawman yet basing the alternative on "rumors." Other teams were interest but that is always to be taken with a grain of salt. Clubs are always "interested" in a lot of players. PS.. how many American players have moved to Europe straight out of Mexico?

    As for this move, like if he went to Europe, it is going to be up to him. Does he improve like Lletget did when coming into this league? Or like Grella? There are plenty that have improved.

    Or is he going to stagnate? There are plenty that have done that as well.

    I am not the biggest fan of Olsen or DCU. I do like the young midfield that they are assembling - full of players with a lot to prove: Harkes, Canouse, Arriola, Stieber, and next year hopefully Durkin plays. They're also still after Williamson but I think he'll go abroad after the NCAA season. Still, DCU's team still needs a lot of work although it's at least interesting now.

    It would have been cooler to see Arriola with NYRB or Dallas, but we'll see how this plays out. It's not a long-term deal either. He can still force a move after the WC.
     
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  10. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If that's true, then why did he almost never call up new players from MLS, unless he absolutely had to, to provide them a realistic bridge to any decent or better league in Europe? And why did many who also had this philosophy support the practice of pretty much blackballing/antagonizing the current MLS player?

    There's some truth to the philosophy, but that's all the more reason why a USNT manager needs to identify standouts in MLS and give them opportunities internationally.

    And what's important early in careers is playing time at a decent ascending level. If you're actually going to play regularly in MLS in your late teens or early 20's, that's better than sitting on a bench in Europe or being mired on a youth team whose standard of play is lower than MLS.

    Where the stagnation can come in, is for those who are motivated to play at or near the highest levels, when they aren't allowed to after they've conquered the one they were at. Right now, we're seeing struggles in both Europe and MLS/USL in this regard.

    European countries, all things being near equal, would rather develop and provide opportunities to their own domestic players.

    The U.S. has the potential to provide this environment to its young talent, but right now it's not occurring in MLS, w/ the biggest factor being the salary cap + exceptions, which here you see benefit an American player who plied his trade elsewhere financially. Normally it benefits the foreign player because that's who is more apt to be acquired from an outside league.

    Either way USS is being undermined. It's going on from a lot of different directions right now, with a young talent pool that is seemingly stronger than ever (from time and the inception of MLS academies), unfortunately. On one side, that may keep us afloat at least. But on the other it means more talent wasted. I do think we're in a semi-crisis and some things seriously need to change.
     
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  11. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From Arriola's and the usnt's perspective, at least this pretty much guarantees starting p.t. through the WC, which he didn't have at Tijuana. It was unclear if they were going to stick with him, and maybe they weren't, given he was allowed to transfer.

    This is often a motivation for a lot of players; ensuring significant p.t. ahead of the World Cup if they are already in the fold w/ the nt. Might have prompted Miazga to agree to a re-loan to Vitesse so soon, instead of taking a gamble in say Germany, when he was already part of the squad in the Gold Cup.
     
  12. CoronaOrange

    CoronaOrange Member

    May 23, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  13. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's worth noting also that things at Tijuana under Eduardo Coudet are not good at all. There are all sorts of rumors that a lot of players are unhappy, want out and that it's a complete reversal from when Herrera was running things properly.

    Tijuana has lost its first three games of the season (two at home) an has yet to score a goal.
     
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  14. Threeke

    Threeke Member

    Feb 26, 2016
  15. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    #915 kruck, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    It wasn't a straw man at all. I didn't want to speak in absolutes but I was fairly confident and here is the confirmation for you:

    "Arriola could have made a move to the Netherlands this summer, but believed the opportunity with D.C. United was a better fit."

    http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/paul...ve-to-dc-united-an/1xukh91lfrgeu1ufv1q47wirha

    I reject the premise Lletget "improved" in MLS. Mostly he was given an opportunity to play first team football. Something he never had before. It's hard to say if MLS improved him or merely provided him an opportunity he did not have before. Grella "improving" in MLS? He was like 27 when he moved to MLS and sometimes new club situations are a catalyst for a career but do I think Grella became a better footballer because he came to MLS and developed here? No.

    I reject the idea that improvement is simply driven by player self-determination. Of course that is a part of it but going to the best environment for player development is obviously hugely important. Would you rather a player go to DCU to develop or a club that is invested in him in the Eredivisie? It's disappointing.

    National team coaches generally want their players playing at the highest level possible.I think we've seen a decline with a number of players Dos Santos/Bradley/Altidore. Some players have kept their level Dempsey. Some have not grown nearly as much as you would have expected them to in Europe (Morris/Zardes). This is a step down and a frustrating event much like Morris deciding to stay in the states where he hasn't really grown much. He Arriola) could have taken a step up. It's a disappointment from a footballing perspective but nobody in the world was going to come close to paying him $1 million so that is a big incentive and probably why he came to MLS no matter how he tries to spin it.
     
  16. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #916 bshredder, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    I reject the idea that Morris hasn't gotten any better.

    There are also reports, which I know and believe, that Sporting Lisbon was the only Euro team that was actually serious about Arriola. I never bought in much about Arriola and the Eredivisie.



    But I also think he would have struggled for minutes this season at Sporting and that would have been the last thing Arriola needed in a WC year. He still is a 22 year old with only 4 goals in just over 3000 minutes. That's a pretty thin resume.

    I actually see MLS as a place that is fine for some players to develop while also not a good fit for others. Can you stagnate? Of course you can. You can stagnate in any situation. But there are players who have improved here too. I think a guy like EPB should move on, same thing with Acosta. I also think a player like Tyler Adams should stay for another year or two since he's got a starting gig at age 18 for a good team.

    I also don't think Tijuana was a good place to be after Herrera left. It looks rather dysfunctional.

    I also think Arriola will head to Europe. His contract will run through 2019 (I'd be surprised if the 2020 option is picked) when he is 24. That's not a long-term deal.
     
  17. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I didn't say Morris hasn't gotten any better. What I said is I don't think he has grown as much as you would expect him to have in Europe. There was a lot of hope that once Morris became a professional he would develop quickly because he was in a professional environment for the first time. So far, I don't think that he has developed as much as he could have had he signed with Werder Bremen. His lack of development has been fairly disappointing. I haven't seen any noticeable strides in his game.

    I agree Arriola has a thin resume and has tons of room for improvement. That is why it is so frustrating to see MLS wildly overpay for him and put him in a situation that I think is not ideal for his development as a player. I'd much rather see him go to place known for its young player development and excellent level of play. Unfortunately he grabbed the cash instead.

    I think it would be disingenuous to argue "you can develop anywhere" or "you can stagnate anywhere" so why go one place instead of another? Well, because one place is generally well known for its excellence in player development and high level of play and another is known for being a dumpster fire in so-so league and without a great track record of player development.

    I was frustrated when Bradley left Serie A to come to MLS, I was frustrated when Altidore left Europe to come to MLS, I was frustrated (but less so) when others like Dempsey and Guzan left Europe to come to MLS. Mexico fans are deathly afraid of their players going to MLS. The reason is because playing at a lower level does mean something. Higher level national team coaches are concerned about their players moving to MLS to. The reason is coaches/fans want their players playing at the highest level possible and in the best environment possible. There has been a noticeable decline in players moving from a high European level to the MLS with their national teams.
     
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  18. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd say MLS is better for development when you really haven't played much or it's your initial step. When you jump up to the pro level, play weekly, a higher level, you'll generally benefit like with Adams. So even for Acosta it was good for a few years although it's time for a new challenge and a higher level.

    But Arriola already has been a pro for years, at a higher level than MLS, and certainly for a much better club than DCU. At his age you should be looking to move to a higher level, not a step down.

    One could argue about it being a WC year but for some of us that's short-sided. His career trajectory is likely hurt more, reaching his ceiling, when picking DCU over a club like Lisbon. And I generally like Arriola but as is, with a fully fit A team I don't see him really playing much anyway and this move doesn't really do anything to improve on that.

    I'd also compare this to a bigger picture on a global scale. DCU might just be the worst team in MLS, likely not a C'Ship level team. If one of our better GC players is moving to what I'd classify as a League One level club to improve his chances of making the WC squad, that's a bit of a problem, is it not? I'd personally feel better about this if he went to a top MLS team which plays a competent brand. Lynden Gooch is likely to see far more mins in the C'Ship this season but I see no one claiming that puts him in the WC picture. Boyd will see far more mins in the 2Bund this year and likewise, is never mentioned as a NT option, even if he puts injuries behind him. Williams stepped down from the Bund to the C'Ship and almost no one wanted him in the NT. Even now with an EPL contract it's "maybe he could get a look". If Haji gets a 2Bund loan and does well will anyone pencil him in to the WC squad? Doubtful, they'll wait for him to go back to Schalke and break in at a higher level.

    Seems to me if Arriola was playing for a Xolos level club in Europe, turned down a situation like Lisbon and signed with a League One level club, few would suggest it was a good decision. And before anyone jumps on me for that, I'm not suggesting MLS is League One quality, I'm suggesting the worst team in MLS in DCU certainly is. They are just brutal to watch. Go to a Portland or ATL or TFC or NYC, etc, that's a much better situation.
     
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  19. FlipsLikeAPancake

    Jul 6, 2010
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    See, here's the thing about MLS - teams can go from bad to good pretty quickly.

    Chicago was awful the last two years, and they are one of the best teams in MLS this year. DC and Colorado have gone from horrible, to good, and back down to bad pretty quickly in recent years.

    DC just made a bunch of moves, and certainly could make more impact players in the offseason. They might not be nearly as bad next year.
     
  20. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Same thing as Mexico

    Hence Tijuana last season and this season
     
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  21. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What metric are you using that concludes that in MLS, Bradley at $6MM per is performing better than Bedoya at $1MM per?
     
  22. FlipsLikeAPancake

    Jul 6, 2010
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you note, the poster's last line talks about "MLS's salary structure."

    If MLS were a hard capped league, then Bedoya would provide much better value at $1 million per year than Bradley at $6 million. But that's not the case. Both are DPs, and both have the same cap hit.

    Bradley may be overpaid, but for wealthy ownership like Toronto, that doesn't matter that much. The question is whether Bradley is worth a DP slot. I would say yes. He has that level of impact.

    I don't dislike Bedoya. I've been up and down on him, and mostly now I think a lot of my complaints about him were he was miscast as a wide attacking player. I was sad to see him go at the Gold Cup, as a I felt he had a solid group stage. But at the MLS level, I don't think he has a big enough impact to worth a DP slot. You only have 3 slots, and I think teams can get bigger impact players for that amount of money.

    I have similar concerns about Arriola. I think he's a good, promising young player. But at that level of investment, you should be getting a game changer. I'm not sure he's that guy, at least not yet.
     
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  23. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    How much impact does Bradley have?

    Does he sell that many jerseys? Does he put the club on his back and win? I can see Giovinco's value, but I can't see Bradley's. If he was paid half of what he earns, then maybe I could but he at $6 million is very odd IMO. I don't even think Donovan got more than 2 even in his last season.
     
  24. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yes, this is what I meant when I was referring to the salary structure. I worded my post poorly.

    Obviously Bradley is not worth $5m more than Bedoya but when both players take the exact amount of cap space, every single coach in MLS would take Bradley, with out hesitation, over Bedoya, if their owners ponied up for the DP salary.
     
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  25. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is hard to show value of this level as a DM IMO. Is he worth $6m on the field? Probably not.

    Toronto clearly over paid but remember at the time they made this decision, it was a tiny tiny tiny piece of a massive communications play by Rogers and Bell when they absorbed MLSE and opened up the check book to try and make Toronto FC as attractive as possible for TV.

    It was this take over of MLSE which opened up the funds to get Giovinco, Bradley, and Defoe/Jozy and then perform the large expansion of the stadium.
     
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