Back at ya, pretend historian.

 

How would it be any easier than asking in general?

As always, you opinions are coloured by the responses you receive.

As I've told you countless times: if you didn't come in loaded for bear, or realised that when you post snarkily you need to expect it in return, your interactions with those on your "shit list" would be much improved.

 

So the Internet tough guy is going to talk smack about one of the people who did the grunt work of digging up forgotten league history with microfilm of old newspapers and produced this stuff?

https://www.amazon.com/Roger-Allaway/e/B001JP4G1E/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1503249180&sr=8-1

I guess I should ask then -- are you "Rufnex" on Twitter? Also, who are you in real life, tough guy?

 

Did he disappear?

 

You flatter yourself.
The only reason I "found" you on twitter was after others either replied or retweeted.
Simple, really.

 

Some of us have lives, Beau. I put in some extra hours at work and now I'm packing for a well deserved vacation, if you don't mind. I am Rufnex on twitter and I seem to get a steady stream of @tulsaroughnecks tweets obviously intended for @RoughnecksFC

After hearing a few horror stories from a fellow Okie named Mike S. who used to post on bigsoccer under his own name, I resisted temptation to post under my full name, even though it isn't hard to find out who I am.

I used to think I had a certain kinship with all American soccer fans (and journalists) of a certain age because of the 10 year absence of a major league for the outdoor game from 1985 to 1995. Those days are long gone...

And I did my own "grunt work" digging up forgotten Tulsa Roughnecks team history with microfilm from old newspapers as well..... it started with a cd with a couple of hundred pix sent to me from someone who knew I was a fan (so I started a tribute website)... then an attempt to find all the info I could on the half season played by the Tulsa Roughnecks in 1985. Along with a few "dodgy" VHS highlights converted to youtube.



This is a new day, and I've recognized what I consider to be a "sea change" in US soccer fans and their attitudes towards the sport that I originally attributed to the aftermath of the 2010 and 2014 World Cups. But then realized there's entire younger generations who played youth soccer, lost interest, then regained interest watching the spectacle on Sat/Sun mornings that is the EPL and The Bund etc. These people aren't going away and they're certainly not going to just cave in and start regularly watching MLS announced sellouts on ESPN in half empty soccer specific stadiums on TV.

I have to ask myself... why would so many non-ethnic twentysomethings (and some thirtysomethings) from Tulsa or Little Rock or Shreveport or Chattanooga choose to more closely follow and identify with any number of EPL/Bund/La Liga clubs over closer regional MLS teams in Dallas, Houston or KC? If you think it's because they're a buncha anglophile europoseurs, then you surely haven't even met these people, let alone got to know them. You can try to dismiss and minimize the "kids in Messi shirts" I've observed as quaint naive types who don't really care about the concept of Pro/Rel, but I beg to differ... or you can decide you agree with someone like Dan Loney writing yet another hatchet job anti-Pro/Rel piece, this time belittling and marginalizing Silva...

Or maybe, just maybe, you can choose to be on the right side of history and the best interests of the sport in this country...

 

Then sincerely, tell us why.

 

OK, thanks. And hey, I know Segroves. He's not a bad guy, but he certainly courted controversy!

The reasons your friends gravitate toward EPL and so forth are not pro/rel. They're because Barcelona, Manchester United and company have the best players in the world. If the CHAMPIONSHIP started to draw greater numbers on U.S. TV than MLS, then we might have a problem!

And still, I churn out piece after piece suggesting ways to move pro/rel forward. I just don't jump on board with everything, and I have the battle scars to prove it. I'm a journalist. We're skeptics.

And don't you dare come in here bad-mouthing people who've devoted their lives to this stuff just because you disagree with them on whether pro/rel is feasible right this instant, got it?

 

Someone tweeted about the non-existent FIFA statute that they think means that FIFA insists on Pro/Rel (when all it does is that it says if you have pro-rel, the pro and the rel should be based on "on field results*" (*unless they're not).

Instead of pointing to any facts or links, our good friend just comes in with insults and GIFs. No level discourse. Not ready to engage and refute or educate. Just the flamethrower. Remember, he's the one that "doesn't have time for us" and that "we're all paid shills" or members of Loney's "cabal" and not independent individuals with our own multi-decade experience in this industry who have all reached our own, nuanced, and non-identical takes on the topic. Nope, we're all in Don Graber's (sic) back pocket, and full of nothing but closed-minds and contempt. While he stands the high ground and fights the good fight against the forces of evil.

@adam_findog Bet it is. #DreamersOverSchemers #WhoButtersYourBread #TheTruthIsOutThere pic.twitter.com/SIIUAL7dZ1

— Rufnex (@TulsaRoughnecks) August 5, 2017

No. That's your stereotype of us which is why you and twitter spammer @DanLoney36 sue-diddley suck as human beings. #ProRelForUSA pic.twitter.com/cNDEuIdQXM

— Rufnex (@TulsaRoughnecks) August 5, 2017

 

You could say the same about myself, except that my views on Pro/Rel aren't nearly as destructively controversial as bigsoccer's herd of MLS apologists would have everyone believe.

Back in the day, we drove down to the Cotton Bowl to cheer on the Fire over the Burn in an exciting edition of the Urologists Cup televised on ESPN...

You're right that its not the only reason or even the primary reason, but Pro/Rel is a valued part of the package and those fans know it and most want it implemented here. And the longer things go on, the more chance that American fans of reasonably popular EPL clubs like West Ham and Crystal Palace will experience the same sadness of relegation experienced by American fans of Fulham and Aston Villa... while I pick up some Blades swag from a newly promoted Sheffield United now that I can watch their matches on ESPN3.

Naturally, you don't seem to want to mention any comparison between Championship tv ratings and say, ratings for the USSF 2nd division leagues, the NASL or USL D2...

Truth be told, if both MLS and Championship were available only on ESPN3, I'd be betting on the latter slightly over the former. And not just in non-MLS cities... add MLS cities without the team they support or a rival in the match...

I've followed you on twitter for weeks/months at a time... you coulda fooled me. I'll keep following Kartik, and derive a certain amount of amusement when Ted goes off on an unsuspecting soccer fan who already agrees with 80% of what he has to say...

I'll do what I want, Beau.
I called him a pretend historian, and will stand by that assessment.
I have a reasonable amount of respect for anyone who did their small part to voice their love of the sport in many ways--- Litterer, Wasser through DaveBrett.com, or even Tomasch.

I'm sick to death of hearing how much I need to kow-tow to any token "soccer writer" with a college degree. Especially when they're part of a condescending know-it-all bigsoccer self congratulatory clique.

I'd far rather support the local high school teenager who did this and/or the authors of this book over someone who details the history of American soccer through the prism of the northeast. And I'll wholeheartedly support the efforts of Dennis Crowley, Riccardo Silva, Peter Wilt, and others who see what others refuse to see and will work hard to make an American version of Pro/Rel happen within my lifetime.

And another thing... where's the counterpoint on BigSoccer to the shamelessly anti-Pro/Rel rantings of Dan Loney?

 

Yet if anyone addressed you in that way, you'd be incensed, demanding action from the mods and then accusing them of agendas and bias when they don't comply.

Why is Bigsoccer obligated to provide this? Link people to Chris Kessel or the Klieben brothers websites if you want to present the other side.

You're right that Dan is shamelessly anti-pro/rel. More importantly, he's openly shamelessly anti-pro/rel. He and I actually don't agree on the overall topic because he doesn't care for the system and wouldn't ever want it here. I'm all for the concept in appropriate circumstances and if that scenario ever develops here, I'll support it.

The difference is, I've discussed those opinions with him (as I have others on the "pro-" side of the debate, with a reasonable attitude to the discussion) and because it was in good faith, using grown-up approaches, rather than facepalm memes, those were interesting conversations.

Maybe stop unfollowing, blocking and ignoring people when you don't like what they have to say, and you won't miss this kind of thing...

http://www.sportsmyriad.com/2015/03/brazilian-style-leagues-in-the-usa/

 

Your views on Pro/Rel aren't the issue. I just had Peter Wilt on my podcast. It's fair to say he's "pro" Pro/Rel. So am I. We differ on some details.

How much would you like to bet that if the top six clubs in England, the top 4-5 in Spain, the top 3-4 in Germany and maybe 4-5 more from across Europe formed a closed European Super League, those clubs would be as popular as ever, if not moreso?

Personally, I'd hate that. But please don't pretend that people are tuning in to Liverpool-Arsenal because they might be relegated. Yeah, Arsenal's bad, but not THAT bad.

Piling onto the last comment and using my new site to which I've migrated all my SportsMyriad content ...

https://duresport.com/2017/07/27/how-the-usa-can-do-promotion-and-relegation-better-than-england/

https://duresport.com/2017/01/01/the-2017-pyramid-plan-and-prorel-myths/

https://duresport.com/2015/12/19/a-quick-word-on-prorel/

https://duresport.com/2015/09/09/yet-another-promotionrelegation-idea-youll-all-ignore/

https://duresport.com/2015/03/13/brazilian-style-leagues-in-the-usa/

Just for fun ...

https://duresport.com/2013/12/12/nba-dumping-divisions-why-not-add-promotion-and-relegation/

All of these were posted on my Twitter feed.

Oh, I see now. You've got an issue with them Northeast pointy-heads. You hate them just for the sake of hating them, regardless of what they've actually done. (I frankly have no idea where Roger went to college. Or Dan. Or Kenn. I'm guessing they all went, but I don't know. So do you hate Cosmos historian David Kilpatrick, who has a Ph.D.?)

I guess you'll be disappointed in Litterer, then. Take a look at the content of his site. Lots of Northeast stuff (and lots of St. Louis stuff), including a lot by ... Roger Allaway.

http://homepages.sover.net/~spectrum/

And you may be disappointed with this encyclopedia that Litterer co-wrote with Colin Jose and ... Roger Allaway:

https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-American-Soccer-History/dp/0810839806

The Northeast happened to be the hotbed of a soccer league that gained popularity in the 1920s and was then discarded and forgotten. Should Roger have left it sitting in the dustbin of history just because it wasn't in Oklahoma?

So, again -- your opinions aren't the issue. It's your hate. Your irrational hate.

 

Peter Wilt is to American soccer fans what Kevin Bacon is to American actors.
So, you'd prefer more pragmatism and silence on my part?
Thanks, but no thanks.


(not me, just some other Tulsa A's fan named Jeff)

But you don't really know whether that's the case or not, now do you?
I've been castigated regularly for offering only anecdotal evidence... if Peter Wilt were to inform us that Pro/Rel is a never-ever-no-go based on his anecdotal evidence, that's a rare case in which I'd be compelled to re-examine my own experiences...

So, here comes a report from Deloitte saying 88% of American soccer fans want Pro/Rel....

And, like clockwork, the report is belittled, ridiculed and marginalized by the usual bigsoccer suspects.

Freaking unreal.

You're not the only person entitled to those views.

Yet, when others vary only slightly from your opinions, here comes the invasion of the MLS apologists, who doggedly insist they are the only ones who have reading comprehension and access to facts... like freaking clockwork.

No, but it's understandable how someone who lives in a journalistic bubble would come to stereotypical conclusions.

That shouldn't be the only POV presented or deemed worthy of your loyalties.
In context, soccer didn't exist during my childhood until Kyle Rote Jr won ABC's Superstars and Pele was lured to the Cosmos. Baseball was America's past time and soccer was a foreign sport where you couldn't touch the ball with your hands.

If it weren't for soccer missionaries like Pele, I would never have started or continued to play, and of course, the arrival of the Roughnecks in 1978 was a very big deal for a smaller city like Tulsa.


And yes, after the arrival of the Roughnecks, I was made well aware of the traditions and decades long existence of the ASL every time I'd walk into my neighborhood supermarket to read and buy the latest monthly issue of Soccer Digest.

You mean, like your irrational hatred of Ben Fast and others who I happen to be lucky to agree with more often than not?

That street runs both ways, Beau.

 

Yes.

There are polls, supporters clubs memberships, TV ratings, tour attendances and multiple other metrics that show which clubs are most favoured by US soccer fans. The top clubs tend to be most popular.

Who said otherwise? Unprovoked, you called him a fake historian. That's the situation here. Stop trying to make out that somehow you're being condemned for you opinion.

Regardless of POV, he's a well regarded contributor to soccer in this country and that should carry some respect.

Does anyone hate Ben Fast? From my experience he seems a generally good natured pro/rel advocate who just happens to spam a comically large quantity of flawed or incorrect info. Then there was the implication that he was responsible for the "Pro/rel for USA" flyovers, that he either made, or let people believe, until he put his foot in his mouth and was exposed as having nothing to do with it.

Sadly, he's tended a little more towards the Westerveldtian in the last year or so, which is disappointing. Unlike Ted, whose approach and attitude is frankly disgusting, I can at least appreciate Ben's enthusiasm.

Nobody disputes that most people would be up for a pro/rel system. Where's the figures from the many polls that feature the follow-up question "Is US Soccer ready for pro/rel", to which a majority tend to respond "No"?

 

I've noted before that the "slander and burn" approach isn't working. Peter's actually making progress. I think Dennis Crowley can, too, though I respectfully disagree (a concept you should look into) with his approach to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Actually, I'm a little surprised the Deloitte report as released doesn't talk about that 88 percent in any sort of detail.

But here's the thing -- plenty of us have added context to it or pointed to flaws in it. We didn't just bitch and moan that someone said something we don't like.

What are you trying to say here?

Here's the conversation to this point:

YOU: "I've never seen Beau say anything positive about pro/rel."

THE REST OF US: "Here are ideas Beau has presented to move pro/rel forward."

YOU: "You're not the only person entitled to those views?

I think Dennis Crowley has reading comprehension and access to facts, though he's also somewhat new to soccer. I actually love his approach -- he's learning, and he wants us to learn with him.

Peter Wilt has reading comprehension and access to facts.

Ted probably does, but he's devoted more than a decade to being the antifa of pro/rel, and he's not going to change now.

You have demonstrated neither.

You're the one who raised the stereotype and implied we're all supposed to discount Roger because he's from the Northeast and is some fancy college guy.

What? Seriously - what are you trying to say?

I'm explaining to you that a lot of Roger's work focused on the Northeast because he -- along with Colin and David -- did the grunt work to dig up the history of the once-mighty American Soccer League.

I would suggest that's a worthwhile endeavor. It doesn't mean that any of us look down on Tulsa. It doesn't mean that the NASL's work to plant seeds of soccer throughout the Midwest and elsewhere aren't also worthwhile historical topics.

By your logic, when Roger and company were starting work to piece together the ASL's history, they should've said, "Hey, you know what? This league didn't have a team in Tulsa. Let's not do this." And then very few people would know about the ASL.

Suppose I devoted the rest of my life to the history of soccer in Eastern Europe after World War II. Does that mean I hate Western Europe? Am I a "pretend historian"?

... searches Twitter to see interactions with Ben Fast ...

Here they are:
https://twitter.com/search?l=&q=from:duresport to:bwfast&src=typd

The last interaction was in November 2014.

Looks like we had a fun conversation when he claimed that MLS didn't have "independent journalists" covering it, as if everyone in a pressbox worked for Major League Soccer Soccer.com. That wasn't a good impression for him to make.

@duresport most MLS journalists work for MLS/franchises, most EPL journalists work for independent outlets. @gavinblythe1

— Ben Fast ⚽️ 🇺🇸 🔺🔻 (@bwfast) October 30, 2014

Subsequent conversations found him to be pretty much the same as Ted, the Deacon and the rest of that crowd -- they lose the argument, so they just accuse people of being shills.

This was my favorite tweet in all our exchanges:

@bwfast @TheSoccerDcn So, wait -- I'm regurgitating a company line for a company that will never pay me?

— Beau Dure 🇺🇦🌈🖖☮️ (@duresport) July 2, 2014

So ... do I have irrational hatred of him? I don't think so. I haven't said anything to him in more than two years, and I can't remember talking about him since then. I don't even know what he's doing these days.

In any case -- he seemed to be a little misguided but not terribly malicious.

 

And an overwhelming majority of people who actually run teams would say no.

I may actually be more optimistic than many. I was really running with NISA for a while, thinking it really was the way forward. Then I was reminded by several people in the know that a lot of amateur teams simply can't make the leap.

One of those people? Dennis Crowley, who admitted (I believe it was on the Neil Morris podcast) that if pro/rel existed today and his club was promoted, he would have to decline.

It's going to take time. I don't know why that fact bothers so many people. I know Ted brings out the 1960s civil-rights rhetoric, but closed leagues aren't racial segregation, and he ain't Rosa Parks.

 

Your side never looks at anything other than attempting to "educate" those of us who differ b/c you seem convinced you know tons of stuff we don't.

In response to your first sentence, it's been far more of the latter than the former.
I'd be more open minded if you'd shown the same skepticism towards CS&L feasibility studies for MLS as you do towards this Deloitte report.
As for your second quip of accusation, thanks for proving my point... condescend, ridicule, belittle, marginalize... that's been your side's MO for years in response towards those of us showing any enthusiasm for the concept of Pro/Rel involving the United States of America.

I'm saying it's little more than an attempt to pander to the very same soccer fans I've watched you and others consistently berate for being overly enthusiastic about the concept.

I have demonstrated both, while you and others have demonstrated a consistent level of groupthink that disregards my valid points while cherry picking my posts for special derision.

I'm saying I'm done with condescending know-it-alls who equate those of us who want change in the form of Pro/Rel with a lack of knowledge and intellect.

Yes, it makes you a "pretend historian" to present your findings as European history when it's clearly biased towards Eastern Europe. It doesn't mean you hate Western Europe, especially if you simply present your findings as a history of soccer in one region rather than an entire continent.

Ironically enough, I feel the same way about you.

 

Maybe if you demonstrated some knowledge of the facts instead of slandering people you clearly know nothing about except that they don't buy your orthodoxy on pro/rel, it wouldn't come across that way?

Peace out.

 

Didn't you get the memo from Don to stop talking to these people? We're all on the same distribution for marching orders and talking points, right?

 

Dammit Ruff, you pretty much fabricate everyone's stance to vindicate your attitude towards them.

How many times have you characterized me as a staunch anti-pro/rel zealot who "pretends to be open-minded"?

This all based on my taking the piss out of you and poking some holes in the nonsense that gets peddled by #prorelforusa.

 

I do know the facts Beau.

I've signed multiple non disclosures with NASL and one w USL. But here come you and the same god damned self righteous know-it-all bigsoccer anti- ProRel in America clique members to tell me I hold uninformed opinions.

Honestly,, your little echo chamber of condescending snarksters can go screw yourselves.

My city and many others were not put on this earth to be subservient feeders to MLS. #ProRelForUSA

Peace out? Are you kidding me?

No justice, no peace.
Have a nice day.

 

If you call Roger Allaway a pretend historian, you're uninformed. Or just a jerk.

If you say I've never said anything positive about pro/rel, you're uninformed. Or just a jerk.

We can't form an impression of you based on stuff you claim you know. We can only form it based on what you're saying here.

It's not one "side" or another. That's false equivalence straight out of the Brezhnev/Trump school. We actually have a variety of opinions here -- I think pro/rel may be close (and I'm looking at ways to get it done), Andy and barroldinho are probably a little more skeptical than I am, Kenn is considerably more skeptical than I am, and I think at this point, Dan would rather switch to nonstop drone racing than have pro/rel in U.S. soccer.

And we can (and do) all speak respectfully with people who are actively trying to get pro/rel to happen. I just had a great podcast conversation with Peter Wilt, no different than the conversations I've had with him for 15 years. I had a respectful exchange with Dennis Crowley on Twitter -- Dennis made it clear on Neil Morris' podcast that he appreciates tough questions. I've had a good email exchange with a rep from Miami FC who was happy to answer my questions.

But for some reason, we can't have those conversations with you. (Or Ted, or the Deacon, or a handful of other people on Twitter.)

Why do you suppose that is?

 

You must be a hoot at parties.

Maybe you should try going a week without lobbing bombs and insults and pejoratives at people you disagree with. If you're so convinced that you're correct, then your arguments and facts should carry the day of their own weight. The insults and aspersions and gifs and attacks don't open people up to actually listening to what you want them to hear. Unless, of course, you have no interest whatsoever of actually educating or convincing anyone of anything.

EDIT: Stupid homonyms. Never post before caffeine

 

For pro soccer? It's a complete non-starter for me. A wasted exercise. It would kill professional soccer in this market. I'd love to see NCAA Division I football leave the conference system and set up a series of 12 team divisions and implement pro/rel. I think that's much more realistic, it would help save what all this money-chasing mega-conference consolidation is doing to Olympic sports, and I think it would be interesting.

I used to administer pro/rel local dart leagues. I don't believe it is a universal salve or somehow inherently better than closed systems. Pro/Rel is the solution to a problem that MLS or MLS+NASL+USL has.

What I have little respect or tolerance for is people who try to bulldoze me with bullshit or insults.

 

If I have ever accused you, or any other pro/rel advocate, of lack of knowledge and intellect, I apologize. However, I'd really be surprised if I have.