I gave a red a few weeks ago - the first I've given in three years - and now the coach is asking for a review/tribunal/court martial/show trial/whatever. I've never had this before, and I've been reffing for a dozen years. I know I sound whiny, but I really don't want to put up with this. I'm really thinking about no-showing and quitting it all. Advice?
1. Don't quit - then "they" win... but really "they" lose because there are fewer referee's to serve the game. 2. What are the details of the send-off? Perhaps we could provide more assistance if we knew what you gave the red for. 3. What are the grounds for appeal?
1. I probably won't, but this whole hassle is making me wonder if it's worth it. Not to mention make me less likely to pull the trigger if/when necessary again. 2. Player beat the keeper off the dribble, and got cleaned out by a defender with a clear final 12 yards to the net. Her next touch would have been a shot on an empty net. OGO, I thought, so it's a Red. 3. Coach's complaints (Followed by my rebuttal): >I was trailing the play by 35 yards (more like 20, but still in position) >Foul was not malicious or with excessive force (But that doesn't matter. If she had tickled her off the ball, It would still be a red for the OGO) >Player was not the last defender (The last defender was in no position to affect the imminent shot) >Keeper had just challenged for the ball (So?) >Forward was heading to goal on an angle (So? again, and player was in direct line with the post, but that's he said/she said.) >Defender challenged from the side closest to the net (Fine. If she wouldn't have fouled her, she'd have stopped a goal instead of give up a PK)
What grounds is the coach using for protesting, other than, "I don't like the call?" The only grounds are a misapplication of the Laws. They can't protest based on your interpretation of facts - you called what you saw, you applied misconduct per the Laws, and you had the correct restart. That's all there is to it. If the league doesn't throw this out as having no merit, you would be justified in declining to take games in that league - and in convincing your referee association to do so as well. Are you getting any support from the state referee association/committee?
I don't think you have anything to worry about. The attacker was fouled in an OGSO, which constitutes a send of for DOGSO by committing an offense that would result in a DFK. Severity is not an issue. Good job on the call, the coach should have nothing of worth against you. I have no experience in this kind of thing, but I would assume its like court. People present the facts, the people running the .. appeal would talk amongst themselves and make a decision. So then as long as you present the facts correctly you should have no problem.
Don't quit because of one idiot. I would definitely talk to the assignor/director of referees about the purpose and need for such a review. If the red was a few weeks ago, it should be ancient history by now. The player should have already been suspended for one game, and now be eligible. DOGSO fouls shouldn't go on someone's permanent record. Why is this such a big deal that it needs a review?
This is my issue with the whole situation. It is ridiculous that you are being dragged in to explain yourself over a simple send-off. If I was you, I would have a few words with the league for wasting your time.
Problem is it's not the league, but the state association that called the appeal. Also, my assignor was one of the AR's. He thoguht it should have been a SFP sendoff (from his angle, it was a blow to the head.) I just pisses me off that I could have to drive to Lakewood (about 40 mins away) everytime I have a send off.
I'm confused. To the State Association? Did the coach file a protest of the match or did he file a misconduct/ethics complaint against you? Has a formal hearing been scheduled, you notified properly , etc?
If this happens in our state, we (in theory, personally never tested it) will be backed by the SRA and SDI. I would also either bring the ARs, at least the one on that end, or in lieu of that a written statement by the ARs. Describe the facts and just the facts, make sure the "appeal board" understands DGF. Sounds clear cut to me.
You should probably present the league with a reasonable fee for your time and gas milage. They can use the coaches appeal bond to fund you for your loss of time and expense. As to what you do at the hearing. Make sure your report is in order. They will ask you if you should like to amend your report which you can do or you can leave it alone. Then they will pose you questions. All you have to do is say what happenend. Point out that there were no defenders in your opinion in a position to challenge for the ball and that the attacker had an obvious goal scoring opportunity. Once they understand that, just point out that the goalkeeper fouled the player with the obvious goal scoring opportunity and that is a mandatory send-off/red card. That is enough to debunk a case like this, because he is protesting a judgment decision.
i understand your frustration. my experience of this is very limited; 1 review in 1600 games. it was a simple process. i had filed the appropriate report, which was read at the hearing. the review board asked 1-2 questions to clarify it for them. the complaining party presented their vision of the events. the board basically said, we are all refs. we know how these things work. you, team/coach did not abide by the league rules and laws. you caused match to rightly be abandoned. you lose and coach gets suspension. it was over within 20 minutes. i viewed it as part of being a ref.
Distance from play argument = irrelevant, you saw what you saw. You were closer than he said, and even if you were 35 yards away that is still close enough to see such a thing. Severity of foul argument = irrelevant, you didn't send her off for SFP or VC. Last defender argument = argument of judgment, the laws say your opinion matters not his. Challanged for the ball argument = irrelevant, more fouls are committed when players are going for the ball than at any other time. Direction of play argument = there might be something to this, but if you felt the direction of play was heading straight toward the goal, then you are in the clear. If you felt the attacker was heading away from goal (not directly running to goal) then in the USSF this can't be DGF because it would fail to meet one of the 4 D's. Location of foul argument = stupid. Obviously, no matter where the foul occurs we don't count the fouling player in regards to DGF. This is probably the most dense argument on the page.
You're right, that bites. The league should have cut this off at the pass waaaay before it reached the state association. The process in the leagues where I ref is, you file a report with the league, your assignor and the state assn, but the first (and usually last) appeal is the league. The protesting party has to put up a hefty fee for the priveledge, which is not refundable unless the appeal is sustained. 99.4% of appeals are not sustained. Now, most folks are smart enough to figure out that they aren't going to win an appeal, so they don't bother. But, as a ref instructor once told me, "You can't stop stupid people from coaching soccer." I'd agree with the prior poster: don't let the b******s grind you down!
Well...in any system of rules run by fallible human beings, there needs to be a provision for a hearing and appeal. Otherwise, there will be no mechanism for correcting mistakes. And for the system to function, you can't make the right to a review depend upon whether the original decision was correct or not. Imagine two different scenarios, both involving red cards for denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity: A: Attacker is closing on goal, having beaten the keeper, and has a "tap-in" shot for a goal, when he's taken down from behind. Referee awards PK, and sends off defender for DOGSO. B: Attackers are awarded a free kick just outside the PA. Wall forms to block of part of the goal. Attacker taking kick taps ball to teammate who has a clear shot around the wall. As second attacker is moving forward to take the shot, he's pushed off the ball. Referee awards a second DFK and, concluding that the clear shot from 22 yards away meant an "obvious goal-scoring opportunity," sends off the defender for DOGSO. In both cases, the game report reads: "In Minute X, I sent off Blue 22 for denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent who was closing on goal." Even if the decision will be different, we can't have a review of B without granting A the same right. I suppose we could solve the problem by denying everyone a hearing...but then that would cause a lot of other problems.
I'm hearing this more and more from the referee's I work with. Just this past weekend I worked with two teen boys as AR's. During the half we were talking about a caution I issued and they both started telling me how they never use cards because of the paperwork and administrative nightmare if an appeal is filed. UGH!! It's truly unfortunate that referees feel that way although admittedly in the case I've just sited some of it is based in laziness from what I can tell. For the appeals, I'd love to see a state association implement a policy by which the appealing team must compensate the referee(s) for their time and travel if they lose the appeal. I'd have to believe you'd see a significant drop in the number of frivolous appeals filed. Right now there really is no deterrent that I'm aware of to a team appealing every RC issued.
Most leagues require a significant bond be paid to appeal. Sometimes the bond is returned if you win, some leagues just take the money no matter what. Our local league charges $250 per appeal. Another league I've worked in charges $500 to appeal. No joke. That's a large incentive not to appeal. I do believe referee's are entitled to a fair compensation for their time and travel expenses in coming to these hearings. Nothing should be for free in this sort of thing.
Wow I wasn't aware of any such bonds for leagues in this area, I may have to research that more. Either way, you last point is definitely how I feel. I mean police officers get paid overtime to be in court, isn't that pretty much synonomous with our situation?
Oh yeah, I remember now. CO has one statewide league for select/premier soccer. The local leagues are all rec (except for at least one select league that's way out on the west side of the state). Still, it's the team that has filed a protest with the state league, correct?
I can't believe that they don't want to use a card just because of the paperwork and all that stuff. If it needs to be done, it must be done! Even on a SFP or DOGSO that needs to have a send off, no matter what kind of yelling or anything I would take the proper action. You shouldn't base decisions on the field of what you have to deal with YOURSELF later. The game isn't about the referee! That is rediculous amount of money to appeal. Thats not a bad idea of getting paid overtime. When someone does not accept our judgment we should be paid more... now that is interesting.
Not that I'm trying to dodge paperwork, I can fill that easily online. Sitting through an appeal, though, is a can of worms I don't look forward to. Perhaps I should say that at the appeal: Soccer Magistrate: How many Ejections have you issued over the past three years? Badger: Just this one. Soccer Magistrate: Why is that? Badger: Because of things like this!
Being present at several of these protests, both as the referee involved and a neutral party on a review board, I can assure you that any league truly backing its referees will never overturn a card issued without substantial evidence of a gross misapplication of LOTG. Every season in the DC area, the NCSL and WAGS holds several disciplinary hearings concerning protested matches, red cards, and so forth. Feel free to look on their respective websites (listed below) to see the outcomes of these complaints. IMO if you've submitted a game report with all relevant information and perhaps a diagram and synopsis, you have nothing to worry about. Good luck. http://ncsl-soccer.com/rules-discipline/38009/index_E.html http://wagsl.com/Rules-Discipline/Meeting-Minutes/index_E.html
Badgerjohn, I am in CO and have been on one side of this type of appeal (as a coach whose team was the beneficiary of the red card). The opposing coach has similar arguments against the send-off, all of them "opinion". The red card stood. There was no misapplication of the Laws, the red card was ITOOTR and no amount of protesting from the coach was going to change that. I really hope this coach (and his team) know he's wasting good money (last I checked, it was $100 to protest and might be more now). You might--nicely --mention while you're there that he's wasting your time too. It might be worth it to ask the committee if you can get any reimbursement for gas/time; I don't know if there's normally a provision for that. And yeah, in CO competitive play the league/state assn are essentially the same thing, as the league is state-wide and run by Colorado Youth Soccer.
Actually, the state office in Lakewood is for the adult leagues. BBJ probably would be even more torqued if this were a youth match and he had to drive to Highlands Ranch for the P&A hearing. (Which, BTW, been there, done that. I've never had one of my adult matches appealed.) To the OP: as much of a PITA as the process is, I do recommend that you attend if possible. At the very least, file a written response to the appeal. (Long-winded war story omitted, which I'll gladly share with my Colorado colleagues the next time I see you on the pitch. )