NSR Netherlands: Current events (in the world).

No that is your regressive mind losing the plot. If you ask question for clarification, then why do you not use the answers to react in a way that would make any sense and progress the discussion? You can ask my position and I will answer. I ask you about your position and you explode. The answer is that both spectrums are not aligned in the same way. The extreme on the one spectrum is different from the other and the moderate chunk is also less moderate. We only have to look at laws in all Muslim countries and we see a complete catering towards Muslims at the cost of other minorities. You do not address this. It is pure discrimination.

I have formulated my claim in this post after some other weird sentences from you to get things clear:

http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...nts-in-the-world.2026526/page-5#post-33245946

Calm down and read again.

And there are records that show millions of death at the hands of Muslims. Indians you say? Ask them about the genocide on their people by Muslims. I have had long conversations with a Hindu on Twitter and the guy could not stop about it. He did not talk about British rule. Others do. However there are Indians who attribute also a lot of good things to them. Also bad. I am also not talking about the Armenian genocide, or the Arab colonialism, not talking about Arab slave trade that was horrible and actually still exits (I mean Qatar is building stadiums with Nepalese and Indian slaves). I did not mention the Iran Iraq war. This is a discussion to no end. I tried to mention something that we have come to know as typical christian intolerance and Islamic intolerance. You can attack that divide I make, but then the attacks on Yemen from KSA also count and we get in a whole numbers game. I think this killing for not being christian or not being Muslim is better and you can add nuance if you will. Not in this hyper way, but calm as it is just one way of me trying to let you see that a moderate Muslim is not so moderate as we think in 2015. We in Europe are not so religious anymore, the people coming here and even the second and third generation actually are. That is the point. The stat about religious extremism body count is my way of showing you that the the end side of the spectrum at the Muslim side is bigger and has far more spikes. Name me the equivalent at the Christian side? Even that group in Central Africa has somewhat collapsed and is just nothing of the same proportion and in the USA we have the Westbro church. This whole thing can be signed off if you admit that in 2015 the spectrums are not the same. That is all.

What is another dimension in this is how much Muslim invest in their religion. All that praying every day and Ramadan and what not. There are quite big investments. That makes it important also for them.

Not a bad line. I like it, but wrong of course. And by the way. Don't play the man, but the ball remember? Oeps.

Right and there was no Arab slave trade? They also took Europeans as slaves. I heard a number of 1.5 million. You are muddling the water, to move away from the real issue. I have found an error in your thinking. If I take your logic to the end, you will have to stand with Nazis and I don't and that makes you so angry that you start lashing out. My logic does not and that is why I wonder why you choose the stance you take. I will already say that I am not equating you with anything of that filth. Maybe that takes away the anger. I am saying that by a mistake in your logic, it results in something that you do not want. I don't want and that is why I have to keep asking that question.

Except we know how they would vote, right FSF?

You love hanging with history, but newsflash: the Turks can vote and also the Dutch Turks. 2 times this year. We know that 70% voted on Erdogan and last month maybe even more. We know that the right hand of Erdogan is now defending ISIS. We know he puts them in jail and we know he is killing freedom. We know all that. Those are facts. Me being against that man and judging those 70% is standing with my principles. People who defend those people are standing with an "oppressed minority" that actaully do the oppressing. Have you read the fear of other Turks on certain forums that went on deleting their account? You keep continuing to make excuses for the Erdogan voters and actually do not take them serious enough. Have you ever considered that they really want what that man wants? Does that ever sink in with you for a few seconds? It does with me since I see them as independent agents that make own choices and they made their choice and it fully collides with my values. Period.

Mo and Christ were different guys and they matter a lot in those religions. Though Israel is not perfect, I do not see the same levels of oppression:

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/israel

If we start to see Muslim nations in the world moving towards tolerance, freedom and equality, yes then I will become less skeptical and I am looking at Tunesia (already mentioned that), but the trends are looking bad FSF. If you can point me to clear evidence that Muslims truly create an equal environment by intrinsic motivation in a part of the world, then I drop a bit of skepticism. My loyalty is though with the minorities in those countries, I see myself in them and your loyalty is with the oppressor, which is a minority here. You are optimistic, I am skeptical.

Yes and how fanatic are they actually? They actually prove my point. They are in parliament. Their loonies are fighting with ISIS with the help of 6000 European Muslim kids.

No FSF, you are the fact guy you say. Make a first post with real facts. You just write away, you do not present anything to base any future projection on. To base your self confidence of the emancipating effect of our society on. Now second or third generation Turks. 70% Erdogan. What are your facts FSF? So no, you have a job to do and produce some facts if you throw a line at me like you did.

Right, so you admit the problem. So you admit not agreeing with them. However higher fertility rate and immigration can lead to higher numbers year after year. How do you know that the social climate will not change bit by bit? Can our children still live in freedom here as a non Muslims in 2075? I ask you that.

Yes, this is the point that enraged you. Let me first say that I think you are a good guy in the sense that you mean well and are here to elevate and celebrate life for all. However you do not handle this "academic" scenario well. All I do is follow your logic and see if it holds. It does not hold I presume, otherwise you would have answered with enthusiasm. Moreover you don't like the outcome of your logic. If this was pointed out to me, I would thank the other person (me in this case) and revise my position. Yes, we can be tolerant for the tolerant, but not tolerant for the intolerant. That becomes more true, the more serious the size of the intolerant group becomes. So simple, yet so hard for the regressive to accept. You can not call yourself progressive and then stand for theocratic people to further roll out their ideas over a country. That is exactly the opposite. Learn from the Turks. This politician finally admits that he was wrong all along and did not think the religious in his country would take it this far. He showed tolerance for the intolerant and he got burned. His country is slipping and he knows it:

True. However it breaks a bigger claim that we can always point at colonials as an explenation for everything of chaos over there. I saw Pauw again today and van Rossum had an expose about how the Americans messed up in Iraq. Then they guy next to him who does research I think or handles extremists brought in that the guys themselves want a Caliphate. We think everything has to do with us, but always forget to mention their own ideas and own motivations. That is actually my point in this whole debate. The left progressive church sees only what it wants to see, not what is.

No you do not get it. Bad is your idea. They have other values. Maybe in their eyes I am bad. Have you ever considered that? However I live here and want to protect an open and tolerant society. Netherlands must remain a country that does not start to discriminate again. There is nothing extreme about the USA o that issue. You can say what you want as it should be. That protects the creeps of society to smother opposition and take the power. Like Erdogan is doing now with all the journalists and what not and 70% D-T's voted on him.

Besides it is no fun to find fault in others. This is not a fun process. However this blind regressive ideology is not healthy. This blind trust in emancipation without looking and clear red signs is a kick in the face of people having fought for that very freedom.

Really? We are not on the same page, not even the same book. Maybe I can understand now why you get so angry if this is where your mind is. Chill, relax. I am a vegetarian, almost vegan. I have not killed a fly since 2011 and drink sojamilk as I feel compassion with the cows. Reboot.

No there are glimmers of hope. Oman and Tunesia. What we need to do is finally kick out Wahhabism. We need to follow Maajid Nawaz. We need to the next generations to make far more aware about individual rights and political freedom on schools. We need to create an army of street epidemiologist:



Not to change their mind so much to drop it all, though that is also possible, but to go down from 100% sure to a 75% or even 60%. Doubt is good. Doubt keeps us away from literal interpretations. Notice the introduction of a scale at the start of the video above.

We need Muslims to face the discrimination in their religion:

http://memd.cf/100ReasonsILeftIslam.html#h.jsv1s5fdvczo

We need to treat them optimal and equal, have their back (very important they feel loyalty) when it comes to their rights, BUT that does not mean to stand by their values and not being clear about that. Make them face the contradiction. We treat them equal, they in their countries do not. Lead by example and they might follow. This is what the regressive not want to do, when it comes to speaking out in a frank way. Anything I bring in against the Islamic doctrine is Islamophobia. No, it is the other way around. Their hate towards minorities is where it starts and that gets opposition. I think we need activism and better communication. I think before we can have that, there must be painted a clear divide between 2 sets of morality so that the ones having the humanists one get energized to come into action and lift the others up. Get them out of their fascist or at least discriminating mindset. There is no Muslim country that does not discriminate and atheists like me are terrorists in KSA. That is pretty extreme don' you think? A country where over a billion people bow to every day. Does not make me feel comfortable. I see flogging of fellow atheists and I don't want that.

If we overestimate the power of our emancipating institutions and society, if integration does not happen, but actually cocoons start existing more and more in Netherlands and the rest of Europe where these fascist ideas get enforced and can keep existing and where new guys from abroad can come in and integrate with so that things only get worse (and 70% voting on Erdogan is pretty F*cking bad), then we have to consider if we must want to let in more Muslims as long as we have things not in order. Or you must prove to me that all will be fine and well. However we are gambling here with our country. This is not a 100 chances game. I am kind of interested in the chances of success that this social experiment is going to work out. Warning:



There are a whole scala of solutions like making the conditions better for Muslims so that they feel happy, but I am not on that page. I want them to be intrinsically motivated to secure freedom and equality and for that I look at Muslim countries, how the Muslims here react to the treatment of minorities in those countries and elections like the Turkish one. How they react to laws like these:

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/apostasy/index.php

Stop creating this atmosphere of there being great dragons under the bed. You get so upset when I point to hard data. You hate that 70%. You want that to go away. Now I have to ask you, how does that make you feel? Are you at least upset, like I am?

Yeah that is state play. What about the conditions for the Kurds. This should concerns us, but it is not enough for me. The Armenian genocide did get attention, but they get away with it. Do you know that denial is step 10 of genocides keeping from happening?

http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/tenstagesofgenocide.html

It despicable how he tries to defend ISIS.

No you are not getting it. They want more Islam. They want Islamic society. No not all, but it wins everywhere. This is my point. If they want their values, then I am oke with that. However it is people like you who do not want to spit out that there is a collision here. My values and their values and mine are inclusive and theirs are exclusive. My values will lose if I do not monitor the situation well. If the intolerant group becomes bigger and bigger, then how can our children be atheist in Europe by 2075? Do we see all the work be reversed step by step then? Is that what you want? No, but your logic keeps you from evading the hard questions and thinking ahead. That is weak and dangerous.

While by asking for the projection, you admit that we let grow something in our midst that is threatening our way of life. I ask you, name me 1 good reason why something that threatens our future social climate should be given the room to grow and grow? By higher fertility rate and by immigration. That is my question first. Why would I want that trend. Why do you want that trend in the first place?

I sometimes do not understand where you take things and how you see monsters behind trees trying to trick people. It is funny. You might well put an aluminium head on your head. No the remark that I made is right. To have all these separate mosques based on ethnicity in the Netherlands is weird. Why should that matter? Many pious Muslims see this point as well.

Please post a study that compares both side by side. Point stands though. There are not almost 1 million in the Netherlands.

Does it help against a headache? I got that from making sense from your posts.

Tunisia is the one I named. However it is still not up to par and we have to monitor the trend and where things are going. I am skeptical, you in my eyes help creating a dangerous climate by being so casual in the blind believe of the emancipating power of our society.

http://www.thevoicetimes.com/pakistan-hell-minoritie/

Also: If you can bring things together next time one post, that would be great. Helps to secure a more orderly thread. Cheers.

 

Many Turks on this forum are actually embarrassed about it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/3t8245/turkey_soccer_fans_boo_moment_of_silence_for/

I think there is a point to be made, but during that minute of silence is maybe not the time? Maybe make this a case with UEFA and have this in order for the future. We should do this indeed for all countries in general, Nigeria is just hit again, yesterday or so. In terms of UEFA then also Israel. When Israelis are stabbed like recently, they should also be included and I don't want Turks to dishonor the minute for anti Semite reasons then, or in any other European stadium.

 

It is not a direct quote, it follows from your stance to stand with intolerant groups. You wanted to point out to me that I am an extremist as well, from the other side. You think it is correct to also stand with intolerant groups. That is a position. When I stress tested this with another group you blew up (It was academic, not a way to associate in any way) , so it does not hold, but alright. You said that it is possible to stand with them, even while not being in favor of their values. Alright, but as you do not favor their values (your words) and the group is growing, then I can only presume that you trust on the emancipating power of our society, as if not, you are giving society literally away to intolerance and with that, are completely irresponsible towards minorities that would face the consequences as we see in all Muslim countries.

I am not sure this is true. I walk around in the same streets and I would have to see a report to back this up. The kopvodden tax is something Dutch people did not understand and yes it is humiliating, but it is a reaction to a thing in that some Muslim states did to Christians and Jews, called Jizya:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Yes, both are disgusting and this is what you get when left lets the discussion be hijacked. It is the result of the confusion on the left that did not stand by their values, but by all minority groups, also intolerant ones. That lead to the right running away with it and now coming to an analyses that this will become a problem if we look at values is beaten down as that looks to much like a Wilders. It is dumb and will only escalate things.

Yes if it is bashing for the bashing, but I have to see an effectiveness report if true critique as a result of own inclusive values would do this. I don' t think so. You need to be clear for what you stand for. We are in a battle of ideas and hiding your own in such a debate is idiocy. Besides I am proud of those ideas, so I don't want to be silent about them. This Wilders and Le Pen paralyses that some have, is dangerous. We can not evade necessary debates that need to take place, as a result of whatever they say. I saw a show yesterday with Muslims vs Muslims. Refreshing. We do not need to talk about Muslims, no we need to give them prime time to talk with each other and learn what plays for them and let them find a solutions themselves. They must take us into a process. I liked the same when Ali B and mr Honing (both Muslims) debated with each other in Pauw. I thought at first that it was lightweight TV, but it was one of the better talks I have seen in years. That needs to happen more in the future.

I understand what you are saying, but I think by not coming to critique from the left on Islam (while they have done this plenty on Christianity, so there is a double standard), you give it all away to the right, who then throw in humiliating things as their voters like hard hitters. Like Donald Trump now is leading in the USA. The people voting on him, like clear and hard language that is kind of humiliating towards the Mexicans. If you let yourself silence as the right is running away with a theme, then they will dictate the terms of how a problem is discussed AND solved. Both are not desirable. You think that by playing kickeboo this will go away? Look at the polls! A Wilders is leading. You need to offer analyses and verbalize it as Maajid Nawaz so that people feel that you understand the problem and then they might also be willing to follow you with the solutions.

So we disagree on this point. I think you will escalate things by giving the control away and thus the way this is debated, the language and the solutions. The first thing is to push forward true Muslim reformers like Nawaz.

 

You did not follow the discussion again. Palestine is within UEFA? Since when? As for general concern, yes of course, just like the Nigerians. Do I draw silly conclusions from you not mentioning them? You drag this discussion down. It makes it infantile and childish.

 

The only person playing the person all the time and not the ball is you. From your first post on you went straight after me when I commented on some pundits who are very judgmental themselves, while another poster was making a case for using nukes. You did not read that, fine, but I can give an opinion on anything and if you do not like it, then that is your problem. As for the point you made in that post, all your posts have been playing the man and not the ball. From drug use to all these labels. You need to calm down and not see everything I write as being after you or your reputation. I think you are a good guy, only 1 flaw in your logic with possible nasty consequences. We have not developed the part of where your logic would lead us to. It is not allowed for me to stress test it with an example you want nothing to do with. That was the thing where you blew up and if you had academic interest in working this out, you would not have invested all this time in pot shotting, but welcomed my invitation with open arms. It is (intellectual) growth to do so and you have taken that away from yourself.

 

Yeah, Indonesia. The big example of being a moderate country. My sister has been there and said it was a chill country with chill Muslims, but look at this:

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2014/indonesia

Trend? Down and color code yellow.

Read this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/2k03cg/whats_up_with_wahhabi_rising_in_indonesia_do_we/

Also here people. Saudis and their Wahhabism. Their nr 2 export product.

 

http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/01/how-marine-le-pen-is-winning-frances-gay-vote/