NSR Netherlands: Current events (in the world).

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Nov 14, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. #1376 feyenoordsoccerfan, Aug 9, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
    all religious books claim timelessness, not a particular characteristic of the Quran. But to be precise, was that age thing with Mo in the Quran? And if so, where?

    This thread has another deduction method for the age:
    http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm
    We find evidence in both Hadith books and history books that indicates Aisha must have been older than nine when she got married:

    • According to a hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.
    • Ibn Hisham’s version of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.
    • Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.
    • Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah (Pre-Islam Period), which has ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.
    • According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.



    • According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah (Migration to Medina). However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years, then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
    • According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as in Ibn Kathir's Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, if Aisha got married in year 1 AH or 2 AH (after Migration to Medina), she must have been between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
    • According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the both of Badr and Uhud battles. Furthermore, in Bukhari's Kitabu’l-Maghazi, Ibn `Umar states: "The Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud battle, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq battle, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation". So, since it was not allowed for Muslims younger than 15 years old to participate in Uhud battle, Aisha, who participated in Uhud, must have been at least 15 years old in those battles; thus her age was at least 13 to 14 at the time of her marriage.
    According to ibn Sa’d's Tabaqat and Ansab al-Ashraf books, opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. The marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-Ghaba, 5:501)

    So, what is more reliable, hear say of your source or cotrollable deduction.

    Yep, double standard...but by whom precisely?
     
  2. Nice trying to provoke me, how many times now in two days? It's not going to work, as I decyfered your Modus Operandi, Your other Mo so to speak.
    But maybe the moderator should take a look at this kind of posting, whether it is trolling behaviour, as it is targeted to provoke.
     
  3. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Unfortunetaly a lot of people have a problem with intermediate position or not taking position nowadays. They simply can't understand it. This is due to the fact a lot of people prefer talking about History and politics (things where they can directly have only little informations from) rather than philosophy.

    I see it in the medias in France with two influent personnalities who have a philsophy formation : Tariq Ramadan and Michel Onfray. They are constantly accused to have a double speech just because they never wanna take white or black positions. This is what philosophers should do, when you study philosophy you learn about dialectic. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. You learn that contradicting yourself by finding the opposite elements will bring you to a position close to the truth, which is never totally white or black.

    I also have this problem on a personnal level, I've studied philosophy (haven't been very far though) and I identify myself to his method. I've left Islam because I didn't like certain of its principles BUT it doesn't mean I hate it or I'm unable to recognize its positive elements. Now most of muslims would hate me for having left Islam and most of anti Islam people would think I'm a liar and still a muslim if I don't agree with their extremist views. That's a problem, isn't it.

    Same goes for that Michel Onfray. He wrote a book where he is clearly anti Islam and anti religions in general, but he also says that there are different ways to practice Islam, that most of the muslims in the world are peaceful AND that westerners have killed much more muslims with their wars than muslim terrorists have killed westerners which is statistical. For this reason, ISIS has mentionned him several times saying "Even the worst kuffar can say true things". And for this reason, some political personnalities hate him now, calling him regressive leftist, pro Islam etc. which is absolutly stupid since he dislikes Islam.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/paris-atta...-islam-book-after-controversial-tweet-1530824

    People wanna take a position and find all the informations and elements that will comfort them in their position an make it even clearer.The brain has more easiness doing this process rather than dialectics, unfortunetaly.
     
  4. Enough has been said to DRB300 and the age matter. It is now for the readers to make up their minds with the other info available, so the coming days I will spend the time to distract my mind from my friends situation by looking at your question to me. And my tax forms..great:(
     
  5. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Trump is not going to start a nuclear war. Do you know how many people and how many safeguards it takes before the US could even launch one nuke??

    Its not like he can just press a red button and then go golfing. It doesnt work that way.
    You're falling for Hillary's scare tactics
     
  6. Psychiatry or psychology or both have a name for it, that I mentioned last year...the condition of confirmation bias.
     
  7. Who?
     
  8. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    I figured you probably wouldnt get it, so I just edited it for you :D
     
  9. Still have no clue, my friend:unsure:

    Edit..Now i see it. Did she say that? Then I must give her more credit then I did up till now.
     
  10. Brexit is leading the UK, or England when the others jump ship, evermore towards the edge.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-article-50-theresa-may-britain-2016-8?r=UK&IR=T

    Theresa May's promise to make a Brexit work for the United Kingdom looks to be approaching yet another major hurdle in the form of Norway.

    That is because the Nordic state's European affairs minister, Elizabeth Vik Aspaker, said her government could block the UK from trying to rejoin the single market, as it's not in Norway's interests.
     
  11. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I hope so!!!:p I'm pretty much of a non-believer but I do marvel on the art/music that was created by religious inspiration. When you look at the Sistine Chapel ceiling, it brings amazement; same thing with the Bach B-minor mass.
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Why complain, are not your investments profitable?
     
  13. @JC-14,

    You can skip post 1376, as it is useless to you.
     
  14. Well, I myself love to listen to missa creolla if I write that correctly. And Ave Maria and..
     
  15. Well, the profits on investments I do are in the Dutch tax authorities eyes not profit and thus tax free. If I would make a million profit, or ten or ... the tax on it is zero...It is more that I hate to do it, so I always ask for delay and now I have to hurry, because it must be in at the first of september. If not, I will be slammed a fine that can go up rather nasty.
     
  16. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    No, that means you fell for her scare tactics. Nice going
     
  17. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Why are you trying to drag me into this shit? She could have been 12 or 53 I really don't care.
     
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    The only types of tax free returns in the US come from various governmental bonds where the interest payment is tax free. I can buy Maryland state bonds in this manner. Problem is the return on those is really small these days and it's not worth the investment. I'm kind of like Warren Buffett, I buy undervalued stocks and hold them for a very long time; there is no tax until they are sold. Dividends, however, are taxable.
     
  19. #1394 feyenoordsoccerfan, Aug 10, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
    I didnot know she did, but thanks to you now I know and I am scared :D, SOB.

    But this scares me more, you really want him within a hundred yards distance of the red button?

    Vorige Tweet Volgende Tweet

    [​IMG] Stig Abell Geverifieerd account ‏@StigAbell
    This is a sentence spoken by Trump, not a piece of modernist stream-of-consciousness pastiche.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    What did I just finish telling you??! It would be virtually impossible for Trump (or Obama, or Hillary) to start launching nukes by themselves.

    First of all Trump would need support from both Republicans and Democrats alone. Then on top of that its not like you can just press a red button, it involves a dozen or so operators who must have special keys in their possession that unlock nukes before they can set events in motion that could launch nuclear weapons.

    You are living in a paranoid Alex Jones world if you think Trump could ever start a nuclear war by himself
     
  21. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    But I never said that Jesus was peaceful without the contrasting contest and it always applied to lives they have lead in round 1 as we shall call it.

    No many Muslims talk like that. About the moral decay of the west. This is why your whole act is a phony. You post fringe opinions and you want it to let it pass as valuable additional information. I post an opinion from a Grand Mufti and rather than being grateful for something you did not know maybe, you go on a tirade. Your so called neutral position is anything but neutral. It is biased as hell. The guy and committee reached an opinion and I see 5 citations at the end. This is just a pic about the short answer.

    This is such a silly argument as than you have to dismiss the whole body of works they gather this information from and what does that do? Does that stop 100s of millions of people believing it? No. You now just attack the body of work they gather this information from as it suits you. What does it do for reality where they do follow their sources as credible evidence?

    You ar conflating issues. Now you just take issues with religious sources altogether as a fair representation for what happened in reality and you communicate your reservations about this to an atheist. Well I am happy you figured that out. The point of course is that religious people do believe their religious sources. Yes there is always some division in a group of 1.6 billion people. But going by what they deem reliable in their own religion, I have the strongest evidence by far.

    And no. You are not neutral in this matter. Very, very far from neutral. Every time you come in you make things personal. Good thing I will report any case of you doing so in the future.
     
  22. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    There are literally Hadith in your bullet points, but in my case you want to dismiss it as hear say? This is perfect. It demonstrated blind bias on your part. Weak indirect evidence against stronger evidence from mine. I do not plaster this thread by copy pasting whole articles all the time, so here is a link.

    https://islamqa.info/en/1493


    You of course. I come with my opinion, provide evidence for it (better than your evidence by far), then you want to alter this thread to some kind of online course where we are all neutral and only post sources as you stopped wanting to post claims as then you can be attacked on it. If people do not comply with your altered idea of this place you attack their character which is now forbidden by a moderator that stepped in. It is hilarious to see all this twisting and turning to force an agenda. :laugh:
     
  23. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    You copy now my lingo as well. I see what you do and suddenly you discover something in me. Right. My behavior has always been the same. I post my opinion. Very easy and it was you who came in suddenly and started calling things "crap". That is why your so called neutral position is so fake.
     
  24. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #1399 DRB300, Aug 10, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
    Oh yes they do. 9 year olds vs 50 year olds is a complete one sided dynamic. The 9 year old looks up to the 50 year old as a person with authority and can easily be persuaded/forced to just do what he wants. Such young kids can not give consent and my reports go into detail how rape and abuse can have huge consequences.

    There is also work being done in how it effects and creates stress related problems and can cause something like PTSD and Acute stress disorder. Some immediate physical problems include a huge shortening on startle time, a lack of control of bowel movements , and internal and external injury. There is a report that deals with complex post traumatic stress disorder as a consequence. There is a study with college students checking for rape done to them in the past, from 8 years and on. It breaks it down into propensities for other diseases and they have a higher rate of a lot of things. These include chronic inflammatory disorders, chronic pain syndromes, and a variety of somatic symptoms, decreased activity levels, disrupted sleep patterns poor immune functioning, lowered cortisol levels and associated illnesses with that and more. The articles mention how the rape tactic can differ but effects tend to be the same. So even if someone drugged someone, forced themselves physically on another, or coerced someone through their authority but with the appearance of consent the problems still appear. The chances for permanent physical damage increases as the age is younger. The chance for tearing with internal bleeding increases a lot (and can lead to death with such young kids). External physical damage will also increase as well. These actually focus more on long term effects of the rape and not on a particular age range. The psychological damage is also long term as well. The general idea is that these problems persist for their lifetime


    What about emotional development?

    Well let me steel man your point in this case (opposite of straw man, making your point stronger)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

    There is a whole list for you there. However it is irrelevant IMO. Being able to give birth does not mean that giving birth is in the interest of well being of such a young child, let alone getting a baby in a relationship where 1 has total power over the other and by todays standards has raped here as she can not give consent at her age. CTRL+F that list with passed away or dead and you will have some results. The info I send you spoke about a 5 times higher rate of death for girls under 15.

    The age of consent is based on cognitive, emotional and physical maturity of the majority, as agreed upon by the government, medical professionals and child protection services/charities. Why? Well they look at the total picture. They look at all the risks. Look at the results in many Islamic countries:

    The sanctioning and consequences of child marriage in the Muslim world...

    "In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates — Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea(63%) — are Islamic majority countries.[12]""The age at which India's Muslim girls can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law,is 9, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.[87][88] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl aged 15 or even 12."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

    "Justified as an accepted norm with social and financial benefits, child marriage has little or no benefit for the young girls themselves, who are more vulnerable to domestic violence, more likely to be uneducated, at greater risk of contracting HIV/AIDS, and more likely to bear children before they are physically ready.Indeed, for some 70,000 young brides who die every year as a result of pregnancy or childbirth complications, early marriage is a death sentence.Studies show that girls who give birth before the age of 15 are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women in their twenties.Furthermore, the infants of child mothers are also at greater risk. If a mother is under the age of 18, her baby’s chance of dying in its first year of life is 60 per cent greater than that of an infant born to a mother older than 19"

    "...Child marriage often results in separation from family and friends and lack of freedom to participate in community activities, which can all have major consequences on girls’ mental and physical well-being. Where prevalent, child marriage functions as a social norm. Marrying girls under 18 years old is rooted in gender discrimination, encouraging premature and continuous child bearing and giving preference to boys’ education. Child marriage is also a strategy for economic survival as families marry off their daughters at an early age to reduce their economic burden."

    http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_58008.html

    http://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC09-CountryExample-Mali.pdf

    "Child brides are often disempowered, dependent on their husbands and deprived of their fundamental rights to health, education and safety. Neither physically nor emotionally ready to become wives and mothers, child brides are at greater risk of experiencing dangerous complications in pregnancy and childbirth, becoming infected with HIV/AIDS and suffering domestic violence. With little access to education and economic opportunities, they and their families are more likely to live in poverty."

    "Nations also feel the impact: a system that undervalues the contribution of young women limits its own possibilities. In this way, child marriage drains countries of the innovation and potential that would enable them to thrive."

    http://www.girlsnotbrides.org/what-is-the-impact/


    So that is why.


    Well, she still played with dolls according to Sahih Muslim:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Yeah, playing with dolls taken to his home at 9 for a bunga bunga party. I am sorry Laurent, but not having this. Besides you said yourself that nutrition these days make girls reach puberty earlier. So later in the past. That only makes it look worse.

    You referenced cases in the past of child brides being a thing in the rest of the world as well. Or something along those lines. However went to ask historians and fond this:

    Link

    Then you get a whole story, books as references and below is a guy going ham as there are these laws and then the counter that it does not prove that it was common practice despite these laws. To use an extreme example. I think I can find some countries in Europe where sex with animals is not forbidden, but I would not say that this is not hugely embarrassing and something you pay a huge social price for when coming out. I did not see the guy in the thread substantiating his point past laws.

    The way I use morality is following well being. What if Mo did not have a presumable problem and had created a child in Aisha at that young age. She might have died. Apart from the fact that he was many times older and a child that old can not give proper consent.

    I mean, we do not go back in time an make excuses for slavery. Is also a moral question. I presume you are against it. We can not go back in time and change it. What we can do is look back and judge it as wrong. I don't understand how you can not just say that what Mo did to modern standards is just wrong? And of all people, he is the one tied in the Quran that lives on today as an excellent example. Especially him we have condemn on this issue. Otherwise these religious nuts think they can just do what Mo did. Otherwise the practice continues and I have posted now so many risks involved in this practice f child brides. It is outright dangerous this apologetics. It kills lives. Young lives.

    Absolute important to hammer it. We have cold hard data pointing out that more people die from the practice of child brides. That abuse has life long lasting effects. That there is huge emotional damage.

    Apart from data and this is my opinion, if you you want to ******** a 9 year old as a 50 year old, then there is something really wrong with you. It is kind of sick. You don't look at kids that way.
     
    curbo repped this.
  25. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think what's being overlooked here is that this underage marriage took place (if it really did) 1500 years ago. Is it really fair to compare this to what goes on in the current day. If I recall correctly there are lots of societies that married off 'girls' at young age, it's not just a Muslim thing. Things were quite different with regard to health issues. No medicines, large infant and youth mortality, wives dying in childbirth. I think we are trying to compare apples and oranges.
     

Share This Page