NSR Netherlands: Current events (in the world).

No I was asked what I thought about it and yes in that response I go after the opinion, but also the left regressive church and it's members that are confused and wrong by standing by all minority groups that they perceive as suppressed, rather than their values. Again, that is my opinion and I will do it more often here. I mean be aware of where you are. We give critique on football players all the time. That is also a judgement about players. You recently went on a whole campaign vs Tete. Did I make separate posts about you? That guy in the news or pundit show or whatever has another job and why can I not give my opinion? Let's stop being sanctimonious about this and move on. You give you opinion about political leaders as well, calling Geert Wilders, Geertje Koekeppeertje. Somewhere it is you who judges that is allowed, but what I do is wrong. So who is judgmental actually?

Fine.

 

I have read that last sentence 2 or 3 times and I don't understand it. I think it contains a claim of what I have said. A position of mine. What do you think that my position is if I read that?

You can do that or we can work with my version that is 1 on 1 with Hirsi Ali:

Claim (open) Claim (close)

Islam is not a religion of peace.

When I assert this, I do not mean that Islamic belief makes all Muslims violent. This is manifestly not the case: There are many millions of peaceful Muslims in the world. What I do say is that the call to violence and the justification for it are explicitly stated in the sacred texts of Islam. Moreover, this theologically sanctioned violence is there to be activated by any number of offenses, including but not limited to apostasy, adultery, blasphemy and even something as vague as threats to family honor or to the honor of Islam itself.

It is not just al Qaeda and Islamic State that show the violent face of Islamic faith and practice. It is Pakistan, where any statement critical of the Prophet or Islam is labeled as blasphemy and punishable by death. It is Saudi Arabia, where churches and synagogues are outlawed and where beheadings are a legitimate form of punishment. It is Iran, where stoning is an acceptable punishment and homosexuals are hanged for their “crime.”

As I see it, the fundamental problem is that the majority of otherwise peaceful and law-abiding Muslims are unwilling to acknowledge, much less to repudiate, the theological warrant for intolerance and violence embedded in their own religious texts. It simply will not do for Muslims to claim that their religion has been “hijacked” by extremists.

Or much shorter. Islam discriminates and needs to reform.

 

Do you have a source? Did they not respect it or used the minute to also mourn their dead? Like how we often see that a minute of silence moves to clapping hands. That happens.

 

I read they sang an anti PKK song and that they also booed for the Ankara victims.

 

Each year these days there are more casualties as a result of Islamic extremism than in 350 years of inquisitions. A moderate Muslim in these days is not anywhere close to being a moderate christian. The Westbro church in the US is not anywhere close to being an ISIS. The spectrum of the two are not such that treating them the same is correct. It would underestimate the problem. You need to map these things accurately. That is what the regressive left in the Netherlands has not seen. They thought it is the same, but it is all an underestimation of the problem. This what people always do. They say "Also Christians". "Also Jews". It leads to an underestimation of the problem.

Another thing I noticed is that there is an "not all" brigade. "Not all", "not all", "not all". Like parrots. That is a side note, but there are patterns in these discussions that are designed to deflect the issue. After somebody has dropped a "not all", then people get trapped in the infantile discussion whether one used a generalization or not and guess what happens? The original discussion gets killed and the issue can be postponed again. I am not saying you do this, or anybody in this thread. It is a patterns in these discussions just like the one you did use "also christians". Eveything to stay away from zooming in and I am tired of it. Me and many people are at the end of their patience and you know what that leads to? The growth of the right who has non constructive intentions. You can come to critique from the left on Islam, but if left regressives kill that debate with their deflection tactics, then they are responsible for the rise of a Le Pen or whatever. They did that.

Islam does not clash only with other religions. It is a way of life. It regulates family, economy, law. Islam is a whole way of life. It does not only clash with other religions, it clashed with everything. That is why almost any religious conflict in the world involves Muslims. They have whole ways they want things to be and so sooner or later that starts to clash with anybody as they want to live on their own terms.

Ah yes and here we are again. Colonialism. I just listened to Pauw yesterday and the guy there said that the people in Lebanon are still having close ties with France as they grant them with all their significant progression. Colonialism has become this meme that we can use for every problem. It can not be who they just really are? What they want? Look at Turkey. What is their excuse now? They move away from secularism and freedom. They do that with the support of people that have lived here now for how long? You cam also up with an excuse for that, but have you ever considered the possibility that they just like their values more? That they want a Muslim theocratic country?

This is where I have to ask you about stats. You can not throw such a claim out and act like this is the great equalizer. Yes I recognize your point, but the groups you mention we often refer to as the scared fundies on the Veluwe. They are marginalized. The funny thing is that moderate Muslims are already very close to them. That is my point about the spectrums that are different and while we see them as has beens, there is a supply of Muslims of 1.6 billion around the world and already 1 million in this country with higher birth rates and if people worry about future climate change, they also should worry about future social climate change.

In what world are you living in? All over the world Muslim countries are killing equality and freedom. They do take over politics. They dominate and take over. Look at a secular country like Turkey now as well.

That population did not have internet, was not lectured like people now, did not have even have proper water or whatever, It was another time and another world. We must look at the facts on the ground. We see a secular country like Turkey with democracy in place shift towards a theocracy. With 70% of the help of the Dutch Turks. They want it. That is what you do not get. You have all these excuses lined up. You tell them why they voted x or y. Must be security reasons, but the stats I provided were from the election before this one. Also, what has security to do with throwing all these journalists in jail and what not? They accept these things FSF. They take it for granted even before the security threats of lasts months and besides, what does that tell us about the buffer? That when stress is applied that people stick to the value of freedom whatever the emotion in play? They fail to pass the freedom stress test with your explenation / excuse. So no I see it totally different and am very worried. I think people see what they want to see, not what the facts tell us. That we live and let in an intolerant bunch that does not chance as much as we want and often even get more conservative with the second and third generation.

No, no, no. We see 2 options these days. Psycho dictators that keep things secular up to a point. Like in Egypt, that Sisi guy. He urges for moderation, he made a speech at Al-Azhar are told them to calm down with the interpretation. If these guys are not in power, you get a Muslim Brotherhood. Religious fascism and that is what the population wants. Elections lead to these idiots getting the power as people want those people in power as they want an Islamic society. Once they are in power the society becomes stripped from all else and then any way to return back to normality is cut off. Countries come back from Nazism and Communism. No Muslim country has veer come back from Islamism. People who do not follow the line are not Muslim enough, which is a great way to keep them in line. Non Muslims are made second class citizens by law and are forbidden to convert anybody. Muslims can and so societies that are beyond that tipping point become more Muslim and stamp on everything else as they have the further implement what Islam has in store (it is not only a religion, it is a whole system) . Just watch Turkey in the coming years. You see the destruction of a secular society under your nose. Pakistan is also crazy already. The problem in this discussion is that I understand that people can make other choices and do not have to like our values. Some parts of the world make other choices and even when elections show this, it is not recognized as such. Tunisia is a glimmer of hope. I am very skeptical even for them.

The term regressive left is invented to counter the militant behavior of people that want to stand by any minority, also the intolerant ones. They started the shaming, also when people like me wanted to call a spade a spade and be clear about values. That indeed resulted in counter "shaming". Though I think regressive is far softer as a word than islamophobe, racist, bigot, porch monkey, foreign informer and what else they and the Muslim community have in the their vocabulary. Not even on the same level. Do you know at what cost these people go after other people? The absolute delight they experience to go after the reputation of a Hirsi Ali? You do not like it when people play the man and not the ball? That is all they do and so to counter that, you get reverse tendencies. It is a reaction and one born out of being at the end of patience.

However back to your central point. If this is your view, then you also have to stand with Nazis. Basically you say that despite there is intolerance in groups, you can still stand by them and defend them. Alright, but then that has to count for all groups. Also Nazis, otherwise there is an exception in the principle and I would actually want that confirmed by you. That you say you stand by that group and I then understand that you do not share their ideology in the slightest, but as a group they deserve our support and protection. I need that confirmed.

What I have a problem with is that whatever the support, these people still want the other to change. You would want to see these nazis change and so, how honest is this all? Would you allow hundred of thousands of nazis enter the country and accept future social climate change towards their world view? Here I am exploring your point and how it works when being put under some pressure. How far does this go? To the level of giving up on your own values being dominant and then being made secondary to theirs?

I don't understand such lines. All I do is post report, stats, sheets and you have 2 posts now here and the other one that I combined and there is not 1 stat and you want me to stick to the facts? I just don't understand such thinking on your part. If you still see yourself as starting from the position of facts, tell me, how do you know any emancipation process is bound to be successful if Turkey moves to theocracy and with the help of 70% Dutch Turks? How do you know that with fertility rates and immigration rates we do not see future social climate change on a fundamental level? Please show me the facts? Name me 1 Muslim country that is free and does not discriminate minorities and non Muslims? How do you know that this principle of you secures a better future? What are the reports about effectiveness of that? Where is the effectiveness analyses? What are the facts you can present me that assures me of that? If you accuse me of implying and see yourself as sticking to the facts then that puts the burden on you. Future projection based on facts, not history extrapolation and with that in hand hope for the best and treat everything as if it is the same and will all get the same nice outcome in the end. That is playing with fire for me. Totally irresponsible, but I will wait for the facts.

 

http://awdnews.com/top-news/turkish...eality-and-we-are-optimistic-about-the-future

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

Above I have linked a BBC article with a dynamic map of Islamic intolerance and that has these numbers per month, not even per year. So I revise my statement. Not every year, but every month people die by Islamic terror than in all of the Inquisitions. I am talking about absolute human lifes that get killed. We are sold that the crusades and the inquisitions have been such monsters of christian intolerance, but compared to what we see now?

N=1 argumentation Orange14. Come on. Anecdotal evidence and the Muslim population in the USA in general makes more money than the average of the country. They are above average. Your Muslim population is totally different. More diverse also. Not from a few Arab countries. USA is far more religious than Europe, so they feel more at home. The group is minuscule, under 1% in the USA and you have had the right integration mentality from the start. It is prerogative to belong to the USA and your policy is very smart when it comes to symbolism and what not. How do you know that they will protect freedom when they are at 50%? What country shows this? We have just had an election here for the Turks and they overwhelmingly voted for Erdogan and that man puts journalists in jail like there is no tomorrow. So we know. I don't need to extrapolate from the nice smile of my Muslim neighbor if he will protect my key value, since I now know. 2 elections short from each other and in the last one he even gained. I am an atheist. In 13 countries they can get the b death penalty for that. You know how many are Muslim? All. Do you hear your neighbor being outraged about that? Is he outraged about the treatment of minorities and non Muslims in Muslim countries. I would like that to be conformed by you. I need your answer to that.

You think they come here for our values? Are you kidding me? They try to escape and save their lives. They come here for our wealth and opportunities. How is them coming here the final proof that the embrace our values? We literally see that with the Turkish elections Orange14. 70% of the Dutch Turks voted on a man that is worse maybe than Putin and read the link I just posted above. His right hand says that ISIS must be left alone, that it is Islamic, well organized and popular. Wake up. The only counter to my point is that we got many people from small Turkish villages in the Netherlands, rural people are more religious. The counter to that is that we have second and third generations now that are actually moving towards more conservative views. That is also why there are 6000 European youngsters that go to ISIS. That is only the top, under that there is a whole feeding ground. People say they emancipate, but how so? What is that for hot air when 70% vote on a guy, whose right hand defends ISIS?

There are not 1 million Hindus in the Netherlands and not 20 or whatever in the EU. And no that is not good, but they do not endanger future social climate change where I live. I am not sure Hindu is so dominant as Islam, with whole systems for society. Maybe they have. Point in case. Iran is a theocracy and a secular society like Turkey is moving there. Where do we see clear reverse trends? Your conviction that Iran will be free is based on what? You can have a free and democratic society where the Muslim still decide to discriminate minorities. Where do they demonstrate to not do so? Name me 1 country.

Yes and how are they treated? More importantly, how do the Kurds treat the minorities in their society?

How about all eastern European countries?

Of course. There are also Moroccan mosques here in the Netherlands in the same street as there are Turkish mosques. That is very weird if you think about it. Maybe that is racism from those groups now I think about it. If they would see each other equal then they would go to the same mosques. It is actually weird now I think about it. Why Nazism and Communism fall apart, but Islamism nations not, is because it is a whole way of life. It brainwashes the persons and makes them feel loyal to that thinking system and thereby the way the state is then furnished and run. That is nothing more than being consistent. Muslims are primarily interested in protecting the honer of Islam. Mine is with the protection of individual freedom and political rights. True Muslims would love to kick ethnicity or nationalism out out by the way:

Yes and how do you react if that group becomes bigger and bigger? You want to be tolerant for the intolerant, but up to what level? What if that group becomes so big in your country, that it threatens tolerance. What if the emancipating processes have not been able to make them freedom loving and protective about it? What then?

No, no, no, it is a perfect analogy. Atheists like me are considered terrorists in KSA Orange14. I can get the death penalty with certain activities, like this one on a forum and what I say. Or 1000 lashes that might kill me.Over a billion people bow every day towards that nation. Imperialism is happening, but it is Arabic imperialism. Again, I am atheist and I identify with atheist there and what happens to them is despicable. I need to look out for future social climate change as I have to look out for future climate change. All Muslim countries discriminate people like me and other non Muslims and minorities. This Muslim thinking that there are 2 sets of people is the slippery slope of what happened in Nazi Germany. That is precisely it. Or do you think that ISIS and the genocide on the Yazidis comes falling from the sky? Do you know what the most prestigious Islamic university (Al-Azhar) taught? Not much different from what ISIS did. Read the article above and how Turkey is now defending ISIS. Be critical and ask yourself why.

IF you want to pay respect to all the victims of the Nazi regime in Germany you would protect the current tolerant climate against intolerance.

 

Religion is a spectrum. Jainism is not Islam. Christianity is not Islam. You can not paint with this broad brush. You can not exclusively get your self confidence of emancipation out of what has happened with Christianity. You need to check if that idea is correct with the facts on the ground and if you get feedback that things are not on course, or even reverse then you have to stand still and think. Analyze and have an open discussion.