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Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by PsychedelicCeltic, Aug 26, 2010.
Black Pete is so hilariously offensive by American standards it's quite funny.
Why? can you expand a little what the point is?
Back in the day people would perform "Blackface" shows to act out exaggerated stereotypes of black people. It doesn't take a genius to understand why it could be viewed as offensive.
It's a huge debate and that's why I said it's offensive by "American Standards". It's a cultural thing and I'm not speaking for all Americans but a lot of us were just brought up differently and the general consensus is that this stuff is kind of offensive. Dutch people don't see it that way and that's ok.
Oke but can you still expand on what the problem exactly is? Not trying to be unwilling, but to get a clear picture.
Maybe you are already experiencing your whole point here
Apologies I didn't mean to insinuate that it's a matter of intelligence that was a poor use of words. It's really a cultural thing. Americans in general have a low threshold towards anything that can be viewed as racially insensitive because of our very recent history of slavery. So in my youtube example above, where some actors basically throw on some black paint on their face and portray black stereotypes like being uneducated and having poor language skills, that is generally considered to be offensive and racist. So for us we are conditioned to have this negative response towards seeing anybody wearing black paint on their face.
Ultimately it's not something that really offends me personally. I've known about Zwarte Piet for a long time and the shock factor wore off a long time ago. It's a Dutch tradition and from what I can tell they have an entirely different perspective on it and that's fine.
This is the point right here I think. It's the black paint and then the acts that are generally considered shameful linked to it. They would not do that if they had not put on the black paint. With that performance they suggest that with being black, being stupid comes along automatically.
Black Pete's as I have come to know them are there to express all those funny characteristics kids have themselves and can recognize themselves in. One Pete is sad, the other is naughty not following the rules, the other makes a mess of the room all the time (like kids make a mess of their room) but also like to spread all this candy they love and kids love.
Again this is MY version and how I experience the festivity.
Then there are practical matters. The problem with Zwarte Piet (Black Pete) is that if the white fellow is not exaggerating the outside look, he won't sell he is black to the kids. Besides often the people being Black Pete are known people to the kids (teachers or family) so being covered with so many black stuff also makes it hard for kids to recognize the person (practical). My mother recognized her own father ones and her whole world collapsed )). Santa has the advantage of having a beard that covers much, but Black Pete is having a naked face!
Black Pete completes a magical festivity and the fact he is in that festivity in my opinion with such a prominent role honers the black man. One could question though the hierarchy between the Black Pete's and Sinterklaas. Why does the white guy has to be in charge? But he is never bad for the black Pete's. In fact he is the most awesome employer if anything as in the end there will always be a cuddle to make things right again.
I think the difference is the associations that are created between the black paint and automatism in the behavior it results in. The black Pete's are candy spreading awesomeness.
Again I do not talk for the festivity interpretation for every Dutchman, but this is pretty much how I see it.
If I think about it, I never really saw Black Pete's as black people. They were mystical figures from far away (Spain and beyond). I had black kids in my school and never really associated them with black Pete's. I mean, maybe you can relate to this concerning Santa. Sure he is maybe a white humen, but then again he is not, at least in your child's mind. Santa is very special and one could say Zwarte Piet is that too.
I understand from other people that even "Jip and Janneke" are considered offensive and cannot be sold in the USA..
I hate Santaclaus, that fat red nosed Coca Cola invented watered down version of the real thing , our Sinterklaas. Shoot him, shoot him now!!!
About Zwarte Piet...In fact Sint Nicolaas on his white horse band Zwarte Piet are Christian conversions of Wodan riding Sleipnir with his helpers that were black because of the fact they slipped through chimneys. So, now you also know where that chimney thing comes from.
I wanted to make the joke in my YA thread I would send Jozy dressed up as Zwarte Piet to spank the Den Bosch culprits, but that now seems to be a bad idea
Chimneys don't explain the curley hair though.
I always thought Sinterklaas was a Turkish saint and his helpers were Moors (mainly Moroccans). How awesome would that be.
He was, but it was the policy of the early Christian policy makers to convert pagans by morphing pagan gods etc into Christian lookalikes. The curly hair was the result of morphing the black helpers of Wodan into the Moroccans that were left in Spain and were enslaved by the Christian victorers around 1480.
The original interview which causes all of this, brilliant in many ways.
The follow-up interview was funny too ... even the Americans wanted to milk it.
Fun banter, but he is right on 1 point though. They can't act surprised Netherlands winning more sweeps this Olympics with speed skating than America in their entire Winter Olympic history (or something close) if they put all their money in only football, basketball etc and keep neglecting sports like speed skating . Netherlands has raised the bar in this sport and if USA (who have won dozens of Olympic medals in speed skating in the past, a great milking cow) and other country's do not answer soon, in 4 years we will see the same thing happening. I grew up with USA dominance in tennis, but look at the men now. All Europe basically. Serena is at the bad side of 30. Bigger example and drives the point home for me.
Jillert is basically caring about the international competition of his sport and rather than warning Americans, he chose confrontation as a strategy to get them combatant in the sport he loves. Had he begged for attention he would have looked sad. Now he is the coach to beat (he is actually not the NT coach, but just coach of 1 commercial team).
And that comment at the end of that other video: "Come back when you are good at something else" basically gives away that somebody has been missing out on his weekly darts action:
Even uglier than Robben.
The speed skating result for the Americans was indeed appalling given that we have done pretty well historically as you note. I remember well Eric Heiden winning every single gold medal at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics from the sprint to the distance. Nobody has ever matched this feat. I don't think it was the new suits at all but rather poor preparation. We also had problems in the Alpine skiing events as well and of course our ice hockey team lost the Bronze to Finland.
The reality in America is that we are losing dominance in lots of sports. We'll continue to dominate in basketball and I don't count baseball or American football because relative few countries play the former and none other than Canada the latter. Ours is fast becoming a nation of couch potatoes with young kids far more interested in video games than exercise.
Well, to be honest I love E sports. The bad news for America is that Koreans tend to be good at them as well.
By the way, what other sports do you feel USA is slipping in and do you think it is also a case of funding, like Jillert is arguing concerning speed skating?
Al Gore already pointed to the cause: It is the Global Warming, stupid
I can clearly see that Jillert is passionate and if he can attract more interest for his sport
Although it's a bit chicken or egg, I feel that more than funding (+/- structural support = the foundations) ... the pull a sport has on your best athletic prospects is the decisive aspect (at least to truly shine) ... e.g. around the world you had a kind of Jordan-boom (still is a strong brand today) ... those Jordan-boomers did elevate the competitiveness of their NTs and we saw an influx of non-Americans into the NBA ... still you can't ride that wave forever ... even in the USA you can spot trends that point towards the decline of basketball (and other sports) while football (soccer) is gaining momentum ... I'm confident that those soccer-mom babies will get seriously competitive. Speed skating is also in competition with other sports and athletes with (global) appeal will inspire the future of the sport.
PS I thought this was a lighthearted thread
PPS Holland & Belgium also boast very decent gamers ... both overachievers (although addiction is becoming an issue)
PPPS darts isn't a sport ... if you can drink a beer while competing, it's a game
Track and Field, tennis, golf (look at all the Europeans and Asian women who are doing quite well), wrestling and some others. I don't think it's a question of funding necessarily except in sports such as speed skating where you need dedicated facilities. There are lots of golf courses, every school has running tracks and tennis courts; it's just question of kids not caring much for sports that much. When I was young (and that's a lot of years ago; born the same year as Cruijff - Johan and not Jordi), we didn't have all the distractions. There were lots of fields to go play and we used to play baseball all day (my main sport). In high school I played on the football and baseball teams and in college I played volleyball (and even coached it for two years). The big money sports such as football, baseball and basketball will always see lots of participants because every kid thinks they can make the professional ranks.
There was a documentary I watched last week called "Lenny Cooke" about a high school basketball player who was ranked as one of the top two players in the country (he was a year ahead of LeBron James) and there are some film clips of him play against other top players and he was really good. Mentally he could never get it together and did not go to college. He was not drafted by any NBA team and played in some minor leagues and overseas. He had a short contract with the Boston Celtics but didn't stick. At the age of 28 he was out of the game and working at a hamburger joint. It was a really sad story. I don't know if you can see it overseas or not. It was on the Showtime network here: http://www.lennycookemovie.com/ you can also find a Wikipedia entry on him. Point is even those with great talent don't make it; it requires determination.
Was it as good as these 2?
- Rebound: The legend of Earl 'the goat' Manigault
- Hoop Dreams