Non roster WC winners

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by msioux75, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Kempes 78 = Jaizinho 70 if I feel generous ... (Kempes did not much in group stage and his team escaped luckily)
    Jairzinho was the only player scoring in every game at WC level including the final
     
  2. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    #177 JGGott, Jul 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
    Which hardly makes him the best player in the world in 1978. If he was the Maradona we know today already in 1978, he would have easily been taken to that Argentinian squad (which, as far as Im concerned, has never been regarded as one of the best internationals sides in history).

    Furthermore, @Pipiolo

    You'll have to start dealing with the fact that Argentina'78 has a hard time cracking even the Top 10 greatest international sides ever, while Brazil'70 almost always tops it. In fact, I've seen non-winning WC squads like Holland'74 and Brazil'82 crack the Top 10 greatest international squads lists and rankings more often than Argentina'78.
    Now, logic and common sense tell me that the non-rosters for the best side of all time would be a lot better than the non-rosters for a squad that is not even close to be regarded as one of the best ever (according to the vast majority of football analysts). There's no way a 17-year-old Maradona would be better than Ademir da Guia and Dirceu Lopes in their peaks, for example - let alone be comparable to Pele in 1970.
    Furthermore, many of these non-rosters for Arg'78 played against Brazil'82 and were outclassed. In fact, Argentina'82 were not even expected to beat that Brazilian squad in 82 (few people actually thought they could and they didn't - Brazil were already favorites in the match against the previous champions in 82). No wonder Brazil'82 is more renowned and remembered internationally than Argentina'78 (and have better players position for position as well).
    So my conclusion, based on all the posts I've made about the subject is that Brazil'70 was FAR better than Argentina'70 (be it rosters, be it non-rosters or be it a mix of both). Same applies for Brazil'82, although I agree the gap probably wouldn't be as big.
    And I don't understand your fixation with this Argentinian'78 side (which, as far as I am concerned, has never been considered one of the best ever by nobody, except maybe Argentinians). You must be either Argentinian or you must be a fan of Maradona's beyond reason.

    I rest my case regarding this matter.. I think I have made enough points to confidently justify what everybody already knows: Brazil'70 are far better than Argentina'78 (R, NR, or combo). It's not even close.
     
  3. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I would not say Brazil WC82 is a better team than Argentina WC78, the fact that Brazil did not win WC82 makes it one of the most memorable teams not to have won it, but not necessarily better than every WC winner there was. In fact, some have the opinion that every WC winning side is better than any non-winner, although I don't necessarily agree with this. I also think that you are giving dismissive and trite arguments against some of the Argentine players in the roster and non-roster of WC78 simply to enhance your stance - Bertoni, Maradona and Bochini being the most obvious. The performance of Argentina in WC82 is an altogether different discussion, though perhaps you can remind yourself how Brazil did at WCs 66 and 74 featuring a considerable number of those players from WC70. Frankly, while it is acceptable to prefer the 29-year-old Pele over the 17-year-old Maradona, it's just a bit too much exaggeration to think that Ademir, Dirceu Lopes, or for that matter Jairzinho would be better choices, and by that I mean at that particular moment in time. We are talking about here arguably the greatest football talent of all time, at 17 he was already being compared to Pele and Cruyff, lesser players like those others are not a challenge for him. Menotti left him aside because he believed the team as built was complete, he knew that if he took Maradona he would play himself into the starting lineup ahead of one of his stalwarts: Kempes, Bertoni or Luque. He naturally preferred to go with experience but he himself called Maradona on the eve of WC78 "a national patrimony", something he never said about any other player in fact. I do agree that overall the Brazil WC70 side should be considered of higher quality, but my objections are to the degree of the difference. Also, if we have already agreed that the marginal improvement from the non-rosters is greater for Argentina WC78, then it's logical to follow that the gap narrows between these two teams in a combo consisting of the actual best players available with the benefit of historical hindsight. Finally, a lot of the non-roster players for Argentina 78 did not make the squad not because Menotti rightly or wrongly felt there were others who were better options, instead players like Wolff, Bianchi, Scotta, Piazza, Babington and a couple more were playing in Europe, and the AFA had a policy to exclude those playing abroad from the WC sides (a very strange and self-defeating one I would venture), although fortunately they made an exception for Kempes since he had been part of the process from the beginning. Had these players been playing in the Argentine league, most likely many if not all of them make the team, further strengthening it on talent and depth. This is to me the main reason why the Argentine 78 squad is possibly not regarded as one of the top ten in history as it would had all the best available players, irrespective of where they were playing at the time, been taken.

    Here is a potential 23 for Argentina at WC78:

    Goalkeepers: Fillol, Gatti, Vidalle
    Right Backs: Wolff, Olguin
    Center Backs: Galvan, Passarella, Perfumo, Trossero
    Left Backs: Piazza, Tarantini
    Defensive Mids: Gallego, Villa
    Center Mids: Ardiles, Brindisi
    Playmakers: Bochini, Alonso
    Wingers: Housemann, Valencia
    Support Forward: Bertoni, Maradona
    Striker: Kempes, Bianchi

    Now to say that any team in history far outclasses this squad, the burden is on the one making that argument to prove it beyond the "such and such is a legend for Palmeiras/Cruzeiro/etc.".
     
  4. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    @JGGott - it's likely we will not settle on our differences, I am willing to acknowledge Brazil WC70 is the better side to Argentina WC78 when including roster and non-roster but just not by too much of a gap. Why don't we ask a neutral who is fair and knowledgeable to weigh in?

    @msioux75 - what are your thoughts on this comparison?
     
  5. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    #180 JGGott, Jul 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
    Again, good team, man.

    Some points:
    Djalma Dias was a bit too young then: most people would say he should have been taken in 1966 and 1970, but he wouldn’t be a favorite in 1962 (although he was called up a few times that year).
    And Gérson was not "Gérson" until he went to Botafogo in 1963. Finally, Chinesinho did not play as a LW for Palmeiras in 1962... he was originally a LW for Internacional, but changed his position when he went to Palmeiras in late 50's.

    Most players on Brazil'62 came from Botafogo and Santos (and Palmeiras, to a slightly smaller extent). For the first half of the 60's, Santos and Botafogo were dominant, with Palmeiras following closely behind. By mid-60's Palmeiras became dominant, together with Santos, and by late 60's, Cruzeiro joined them as the most powerful teams in Brazil (Botafogo wasn't as powerful as during the first half of the 60's).
    Brazil'62 may look similar to Brazil'68, but the non-roster squads of both would look significantly different.
    The roster team also had some top level substitutes. The starting defense and midfield were pretty much the same as in 1958. Only difference was Bellini (São Paulo) swapped with Mauro (Santos), who became a starter; and Zózimo (Bangu) – who was a sub in ‘58 – also became a starter, very probably because Orlando was transferred to Boca Juniors in Argentina and, in those days, players who performed abroad did not join the Brazilian national team. Jurandir (São Paulo) was taken in his place.
    That makes Orlando the first victim of injustice in ’62, considering he was called back to join Brazil in ‘66, as soon as he returned to the country the year before.

    This one won't be as difficult as Brazil'58, although I might end up overlooking a few names as well (not too many though). Here are my views:

    GOALKEEPERS:
    Although Manga (Botafogo) really started to peak later in his carrer, he very probably could have been taken already in 1962. Gilmar (Santos) and Castilho (Fluminense) were still dominant on the National Team though, I woulnd't say it was an injustice Manga not being taken to the World Cup in 1962... but a good non-rosters option.
    There was alsoValdir de Moraes, who was THE goalkeeper for Palmeiras before Leão came along in late 60's and early 70's. Palmeiras has always been nationally recognised as an excellent school of goalkeepers.
    Perhaps Laércio (Santos) deserves to be mentioned as well.

    RIGHT-BACK:
    Although De Sordi (São Paulo) was probably past it in 1962, I'd say he would still be the favourite for the non-rosters option, considering he was being tested during the preparations for WC'62 and there were really no serious contenders for the position.
    Djalma Santos (Palmeiras) was understandably chosen as the starter and Jair Marinho (Fluminense) was taken as his substitute.

    CENTRE-BACKS:
    As it was mentioned, as soon as Orlando was transferred to Boca Juniors, he immediately stopped being called up to play for Brazil. And he was peaking in 1962, being 26 years old at the time – would have probably been a starter if he’d been called up.
    Calvet is one of the most memorable players in Santos’ history. He played during the Pelé years, alongside Mauro Ramos on defense (who was a starter on the NT and regarded as one of the greatest CB’s ever in Brazil), in a time when Santos were probably the best team in the world (considering they were Club World Champions both in 1962 and 1963, beating the legendaries Benfica and Milan of the 60’s).
    Calvet was being tested regularly for the National Team from 1960 up until 1962, weeks before the World Cup. He was a great CB, but unfortunately was always left in the shadows of Mauro. Ultimately, Aymoré Moreira chose not to take him, justifying his decision by simply stating there were already too many Santos players on the team. Definitely deserved to have been part of that squad.
    Another good option would be Aírton Pavilhão (Grêmio). Curiously, he is considered the greatest CB in the history of Grêmio, together with Calvet (above), who defended Grêmio for 6 years before joining Santos.
    Lastly, I believe Waldemar Carabina, one of the greatest names in Palmeiras’ history, has to be taken into account as well.

    LEFT-BACK:
    Rildo (Botafogo) was probably the best non-roster at that point. Arguably better than Altair (Fluminense), the one who was chosen by the manager to be Nílton Santos’ (Botafogo) substitute. Nilton was 37 years old in 1962 – most players shouldn’t even be considered to participate in a WC at that age (let alone as a starter) – but Nílton Santos is not “most players”.

    DEFENSIVE-MIDFIELDER:
    Zito (Santos) is the greatest DM in Brazilian history and was the starter. Zequinha (Palmeiras) was easily the best in the country at that point, after Zito. Both were taken and no injustices were made.
    Carlinhos (Flamengo) was considered as a third option, but didn’t make it. Écio Capovilla (Vasco da Gama) was called up in 1960, but wasn’t being called up in 1962 – perhaps he wasn’t going through his best moments – so I’ll leave him as a 4th option due to that.

    CENTRAL-MIDFIELDERS:
    In theory, it would have been an injustice to leave Mengálvio, the legendary playmaker, the “brains” behind world-champion Santos at that point as a substitute.
    In theory, it would also be an injustice to leave Chinesinho, the fast and skillful playmaker who arrived at Palmeiras in 1958-9 and quickly became one of the leading men on a team that would become known as “the Academy of Football”, nickname given by the press to Palmeiras at the time, due to the exuberant class and high techinique of demonstrated by the club’s players, starting in 1959-60.
    This theory does not apply when the man they are trying to overcome is Didi. Didi was 33 years old in 1962 but, like Nilton Santos, he is not like other mortal players.
    One injustice would have to be made. And Mengálvio was the lucky one.

    RIGHT-WING:
    Garrincha (Botafogo) reigned supreme in his position at that point and ended up crowned as the best player of that World Cup and his performance is still mentioned as one of the greatest World Cup performances ever.
    The question was who was to be his substitute. There were three real options:
    Julinho Botelho (Palmeiras) was one of the men that formed the “Academy” with Chinesinho and others, which I mention a few lines above. Although he wasn’t peaking as much as in the 2 previous World Cup editions, he was still one of the best RW’s in the country and was essential for what Palmeiras was becoming early in the 6o’s and would turn into later in the decade. He is the greatest RW in Palmeiras' history.
    Like Julinho, Dorval (Santos) is the greatest RW in the history of Santos. He was one of the main players on a team full of ‘craques’ and was called up for the National Team several times before the World Cup. Another great contender.
    And of course, the third option was the chosen one: Jair da Costa, the youngest of them all, the only one who did not play for a high profile team, but still managed to show his talent and be called up. Probably highly contested at the time, he proved manager Aymoré was right, after making a move to Inter Milan and making history in Italy, side by side with other 60’s legends such as Giacinto Facchetti, Sandro Mazzola, Luis Suárez, Armando Picchi, Tarcisio Burg and others...

    FORWARD:
    Pelé (Santos) was already “Pelé” in 1962 and was, of course, the starter.
    Amarildo (Botafogo), who often played as a Left-Winger as well, was chosen as his substitute. It was probably one the best substitutions ever made in a tournament, considering he was taking the place of the greatest player of all time, after he got injured during the WC. So no one can ever say any injustices were made here.
    Most of the contenders for third option were abroad. There were two local players that were considered, Benê and Prado (both from Sao Paulo F.C.) but I wouldn’t go as far as to say they were serious contenders to join a Brazilian National Team.
    Perhaps the best options were outside Brazil, considering many Brazilian players (especially forwards) were greatly desired overseas after Brazil won the World Cup in 1958 and many of them left Brazil (therefore missing their opportunity to play for the National Team). Many of them have been mentioned on the Brazil’58 post:
    Paulo Valentim (Boca Juniors) had been part of the best offensive set-up in Botafogo’s history (alongside Didi, Garrincha, Quarentinha, Amarildo and Zagallo), until he moved to Boca Junior in 1960 and became a legend there as well. By 1959, before he left Brazil, he’d already started to be called up for the NT and was a prominent goal-scorer whilst playing for Boca, in Argentina. He could be used as a Centre-Forward as well.
    Perhaps Evaristo de Macedo’s (Barcelona/Real Madrid) big chance had been in 1958, when he would have probably been a starter before making his move to Spain. But a player of his level would certainly have conditions to play for Brazil in 1962 as well.
    Delém (River Plate) had reached the NT in 1960, whilst playing for Vasco da Gama and was enjoying a successful career in Argentina.
    Almir Pernambuquinho (Boca Juniors/Fiorentina/Genoa) had been considered to join Brazil in 1958, when he was only 21. Not a bad option, although I believe he had better chances in 1958.

    SRIKER/CENTRE-FORWARD:
    There were four EXCEPTIONAL Brazilian players at the position at the time. Two of them had already been to the previous World Cup: Vavá and Altafini, but the later had moved to AC Milan and was now defending Italy at the WC.
    So there were, in fact, 3 real options: Coutinho, Vavá and Quarentinha.
    Coutinho was supposed to be the starter. He was some sort of Romário of the 1960’s: extremely deadly inside the area. His partnership with Pelé at Santos was already becoming legendary and he deserved the spot on the first team. Coutinho scored 370 goals in 450 matches for Santos, making him the third highest scorer in the history of the club, behind Pelé and Pepe. Unfourtunately, like his teammate Pepe, he got injured and had to be benched.
    The main injustice happened with Quarentinha. The Botafogo legend still holds the record of best goal-rate for the Brazilian national team. In 17 games, he scored 17 times for Brazil, an average of one per match. He is the top scorer in the whole of Botafogo’s history, with 313 goals in 442 games, and some sources say he scored more than 500 goals in his entire career. The fact is that Quarentinha was a goal-scoring machine and it was a surprise to a lot of people that he was not called up.
    But Manager Aymoré Moreira preferred the experienced Vavá, another top player in his own right, in the place of Quarentinha.

    LEFT-WING:
    Together with the RB position, probably the one that had the smallest amount of dispute for. Canhoteiro was 30 years old and on his way to retirement the following year and the spot pretty much belonged to Pepe. That is, until he got injured AGAIN and lost his spot to Zagallo AGAIN, which probably makes Zagallo the luckiest man in the history of Brazilian football - and Pepe one of the unluckiest (at least, when it comes down to national team).
    No serious contenders for the non-rosters team, but a guy named Germano, who played for Flamengo at the time (before being transferred to AC Milan) had been considered by the manager. So I'll include him.

    Here’s the squad, @msioux75 :

    Manga/Valdir(Laércio) – De Sordi – Orlando(Aírton) – Calvet(Waldemar) – Rildo – Carlinhos(Écio) – Chinesinho – Dorval/Julinho – P.Valentim/Evaristo(Delém/Almir) – Quarentinha – Germano

    Some were just as good as the rosters, some were worse (Carlinhos, Germano) and probably only Orlando was considerably better than the rosters.
     
  6. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    #181 JGGott, Jul 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
    You have shown a few times here that you're trying to compare Brazil'70 rosters with Argentina'78 rosters. Which is just absurd to me and very probably to most.

    And I never said any team in history outclasses Argentina'78, but I do assert with every confidence in the world that Argentina'78 is not amongst the best international squads ever (and I'm also sure I'm not alone on this one either - I've rarely seen Arg'78 crack the Top 10 of greatest international sides ever)
    .
    Now, you are clearly a Maradona fan (I'd dare say you're from Argentina) and you cannot hide it (starting with your profile picture), so I have big doubts regarding you remaining neutral when Maradona comes to the picture.
    I'll repeat: a 17 year old Maradona is in NO WAY comparable to a 29 year old Pelé and is also not comparable to Ademir da Guia, Dirceu Lopes, Gerson, Rivellino, Tostao, Jairzinho, Paulo Cézar and all those elite players who were PEAKING in 1970 playing for Brazil. Maradona wasn't even "Maradona" in 1982 (the best player in the world at that point was Zico), let alone in 1978 when he was a kid.

    Now, you have a fair point when you say Argentina might have a bigger improvement with the inclusion of the non-rosters - I might even agree with that. But Maradona is not part of that improvement. If a 17 year-old Maradona would take the place of Argentina'78 starting player - then I'm sorry - that starting player is not an elite player. And, you know what, Maradona wasn't taken to that WC, because he just was not better than the guys who were taken AT THAT POINT. I'd probably agree with Bochini and the other guys being a better improvement than Maradona.
    But no matter how big that improvement would be, to say that that squad would be comparable, in terms of talent, to Brazil'70 is complete BS to me and I'm sure anyone with a little bit of common sense would agree.

    Clearly shows your lack of knowledge on 60's Brazilian football. Don't be proud of it.
    If you check Placar magazine's Dream Team squads, you will see literally ALL of the names that I mention as legends for those 2 clubs right there. I don't base myself soley on personal opinion... I use A LOT of sources in the posts I am making about Brazilian squads. You will never seee me calling a legend a player who does not deserve to be called a legend. I won't call an average player good and I won't call a good player a legend.
    But bare in mind that my posts are focusing in the 60's - the Golden Era of Brazilian Football - when most of the best players ever in the country were coming up - and Cruzerio and Palmeiras were peaking in that decade. All facts, mate. All facts... none of it is guesswork. It's only natural the word "legend" will come up quite a lot.
    You just need a bit more research, that's all.
     
  7. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    Would you mind making a comparison player for player (in their respective positions, not like you did before, comparing a winger with a centre-forward) for the rosters+non-rosters of Arg'78 and Bra'70?

    That would be a good way of analysing it and convincing me that Argentina'78 (R+NR) are not that far behind compared to Brazil'70(R+NR). You will not convince me (and probably anyone) that they are both in the same level - that's not going to happen because the differences are too obvious; but the quality gap might be decreased if what you're doing makes sense.

    And please don't try to spare Maradona. I know you LOVE the guy, but put him in his actual position vs the Brazilian player who's in the same position - be it Pelé, be it Gerson, be it whoever.
     
  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Well, this is not about Maradona but I will say by 1982 Maradona was considered the best player in the world and was the most expensive transfer in football history going to Barcelona. However, he had a disappointing World Cup (akin to Messi in WC10).

    Again, you are making a fallacious argument. The reason the Argentina WC78 squad may not be a mainstay in all-time top ten lists is precisely because it did not take all of the best Argentine players of the time. My alternative squad posted earlier shows what that team could have looked like, the improvement to the actual squad that Menotti took is considerable, and far greater than any improvement to Brazil's WC70 squad could be had from non-roster players. In any event, the squad improves due to Maradona and Bochini being there, along with Gatti, Wolff, Piazza, Bianchi, Brindisi, Perfumo, etc.
     
  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Sure, I'll make the comparison but I need you to post the Brazil WC70 roster + non-roster in your view, like I did for Argentina WC78.
     
  10. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    We'll have to agree to disagree. Maradona was not the best player in the world in 1982 . Zico was widely regarded as such (including winning the golden ball). Being the most expensive player in the world is not the same as being the best - that's a future investment in a young talent. Look at Gareth Bale - most expensive, but definitely not the best.

    I haven't made a single fallacious argument so far, You're making absurd statements saying Argentina'78 are better than Brazil'70, comparing even the rosters - and you expect people to agree with that. That's a fallacy. And Maradona being there would be no improvement, considering he was not better than the roster - not when he was just 17 - unless the roster was not too good.
     
  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Maradona had won South American Footballer of the Year in both 1979 and 1980, beating Zico and everyone else in the voting. He did lose to Zico in 1981 after Flamengo's great run in the Libertadores. 82 was also won by Zico but Maradona only played half the year in South America since he was signed by Barcelona right before the WC and the voting takes place in December. So according to you Zico is widely regarded as the best in the world, over Maradona, but yet had already lost two times in the South American voting to a teenage Diego.

    Again, I didn't say Argentina '78 is better, just that the difference is not very big when we include roster and non-roster players to make an alternative side. So you're telling me that Maradona is not better than others who made the squad, such as Ortiz or Luque in 1978, but in 1979 he is voted the best player in the entire continent (not just Argentina). Talk about making absurd statements!
     
  12. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    The most logical to me would be to simply go for the best option per position (roster or non roster). One name in each position.
    Anyway, here it goes - excluding bad subsitutte rosters and bad non-rosters.

    GK: Felix – Leao - Manga - Raul Plasmann
    RB: Carlos Alberto – Zé Maria
    CB: Brito - Djalma Dias – Roberto Dias – Leônidas
    LB: Everaldo – Rildo – Marco Antonio
    DM: Piazza – Clodoaldo – Zé Carlos – Dudu
    CM: Gerson – Ademir da Guia
    RW: Jairzinho – Paulo Borges – Natal
    AM/FW: Pelé – Dirceu Lopes
    ST: Tostao – Toninho Guerreiro – Dario – Roberto Miranda – Cesar Maluco
    LW: Rivellino – Paulo Cézar - Edu
     
  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    It has to be only 23 for the WC squad, you have to cut one goalkeeper and a few other players. Re-post it and I will make the comparison tomorrow.
     
    JGGott repped this.
  14. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    Most football analysts place Zico ahead of Maradona in early 80's, not just me. You can ingore that FACT or you can accept it.
    Go right ahead and put Maradona in the comparison. It won't make a slightest difference.
     
  15. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    #190 JGGott, Jul 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
    I hope you have the decency of choosing 3 GKs, like I did - and 2 players per position, of course.

    GK: Manga - Raul Plasmann - Leao
    RB: Carlos Alberto - Zé Maria
    CB: Djalma Dias - Roberto Dias - Leônidas - Brito
    LB: Rildo - Everaldo
    DM: Piazza - Clodoaldo
    CM: Gerson - Ademir da Guia
    RW: Jairzinho - Paulo Cézar Caju
    AM/FW: Pelé - Dirceu Lopes
    ST: Tostao - Toninho Guerreiro
    LW: Rivellino - Edu

    The only player who's position has been altered was Paulo Cézar, since he was more versatile (originally a LW, but also played as an AM) - being an elite player, he would adapt to the RW, like Rivellino adapted to the LW.

    And Piazza, of course, was moved back to his original position, which was always as a DM. No need to have him improvised as a CB anymore, when you have Djalma Dias and the rest of the non-roster CB's making the team.
     
  16. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Maybe in Brazil? I believe fellow poster Vegan10 has provided extensive evidence in another thread showing that is not the case.
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  17. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    These are two amazing squads... Such unjustice that guys like Ademir, Dirceu, Bochini and Alonso were not part of it/had a bigger role in them...
     
    JGGott repped this.
  18. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    Are you kidding me? I didn't know World Soccer magazine, which named Zico best player in the world in 1983, was Brazilian, for example.
    There's general worldwide consensus that Zico was the best player in the world in early 80's and Maradona was not on the radar as much as him yet, Platini was the best in mid 80's (84-85) and Maradona only isolated himself and became MARADONA during the second half of the 80's (86's onwards).
    I'm not saying he wasn't Top 3 before, but definitely not unquestionably the best.
     
  19. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    #194 JGGott, Jul 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
    Perhaps it would make more sense to have Rivellino (originally an AM) as a duo with Paulo Cézar Lima (who also played as an AM) and Jairzinho as a duo with Edu (considering they were both wingers, one on the left and the other on the right). Hard to decide, because no substitutes to Jairzinho were taken in 1970. And Rivellino wasn't really a LW on that squad, he was a false-winger (like Zagallo in 1958-62), who would be more present on the midfield than actually on the wings.
    I'll let you choose whatever you think makes more sense: Rivellino+Edu or Rivellino+Paulo Cézar. Thinking back now, I'd say the second duo makes more sense.
    Rivellino+Paulo Cézar would be up against either Bochini+Alonso (probably) or Bertoni+Maradona (less likely, in my opinion). I'll let you choose, Pipiolo.

    One question. Are we measuring the combo or the starting players? Measuring the starters would perhaps be better in terms of defining which squad was actually the best (considering only 11 actually play). Measuring the combo would be better at defining which generation was better.

    My starting 11 mash-up:
    Fillol - Caros Alberto - Passarella - Djalma Dias - Tarantini - Piazza(BRA) - Gerson - Jairzinho - Pelé - Tostao/Kempes(draw) - Rivellino.

    My only true doubt was regarding the DM position. I don't know much about Gallego, but he needs to be in the Top 3 greatest Argentinian DM's, because that's where Piazza stands in Brazil. Piazza was so brilliant that Zagallo had to keep him on that 1970 team in any possible way, so he decided to improvise him as a CB. So unless Gallego is in that same league, he cannot take Piazza's place.
    And of course, although I have no doubt that Tostao was a greater player than Kempes, the latter was so good during the World Cup (exceding expectations quite considerably), that I was forced to make it a draw between the two.

    As I've been saying before, only 3 Argentinian players make it as starters (or clearly make it). Which is actually pretty good, considering they're up against Brazil'70.
     
  20. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Great post as always, mate :cool:

    Why do you think about Canario? he was one of the most recognized RW in La Liga those years.
     
  21. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Most analyst except those who actually voted, right? :rolleyes:

    SAPOTY 1979: Maradona
    SAPOTY 1980: Maradona

    No need for such aggressive language, I already posted the roster/non-roster Argentina '78 squad much earlier than you did. I will make the comparison later today when I have time.

    Do you have the link to that thread? I need it for this argument.

    @Once
     
  22. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    Thanks, mate.

    Canário is a great call!

    Still revered at Real Madrid, where he was part of a scary attacking frontline: Didi, Canário, Del Sol, Di Stéfano, Puskas and Gento. He was already being called up for the preparations for WC'58, but did not have a serious chance since he had to compete with Garrincha, Julinho and Joel (all three peaking).
    I believe he would have had better chances in 1962, but he was one of those many Brazilians who went to play abroad in late 50's and early 60's and ended up missing their chances with the national team.
    Gotta add him to the RW with Dorval and Julinho, though.

    Very good call.
     
    msioux75 repped this.
  23. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    Sure, Sapoty is such a revered institution.
    World Soccer Magazine 1983: Zico.

    You just need to use logic: a 19 year old Maradona would not be better than a 26 year old Zico. It's that logical.
    Anyway, I'm not going to discuss Maradona with you anymore.. you're clearly fanatical about the guy.
     
  24. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    LOL, of course you take an English magazine's opinion over the South American official ballot. This just shows you are not willing to give an inch on your argument and I wonder if I am just wasting my time here.
     
  25. JGGott

    JGGott Member

    Nov 10, 2012
    #200 JGGott, Jul 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
    Considering both players were in Europe at the time, yes I do. Without blinking.

    Besides, you do know that South American institutions, in general, have always favored Spanish speaking countries rather than Brazilians, right? That is widely known fact in South America.

    I don't know where you're from, but Brazil has always been considered a separate entity in South America, not only because of the language barrier (Portuguese, not Spanish), but also due to significant cultural differences compared to the rest of the continent. I'd be surprised if any Brazilians had a say on that poll, especially considering the huge rivalry between the countries when it came to football.

    You just need to use logic: a 19 year old Maradona would not be better than a PEAKING 26 year old Zico. It's that logical. Only a Maradona fanatic (and there's plenty of them around) would not see it.

    Anyway, I'm not going to discuss Maradona with you anymore.. I'm not going to argue with a fanatic. You lost your credibilty regarding Maradona-related discussions when you tried to compare a 17 year old kid with Brazil'70 to me.
     

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