No High School Soccer in 2012?

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by respecthegame, Dec 10, 2011.

  1. Ruud11

    Ruud11 Member

    Dec 2, 2009
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    You are missing the point. We are not saying HS soccer will get a player in front of college coaches!

    Good HS soccer players, who play for the top ranked travel teams get seen by College coaches at ID Camps, at Disney, the National League, at top tournament (if the team plays in the top division), etc.

    HS soccer is to develop their leadership skills (since they will most likely be Captains for at least 1 yr), to play with their friends, to play in front of their girlfriends, etc. It also benefits their confidence if they bang in tons of goals and their name is announced 3times a week on the HS tannoy system.
     
    MLSinCleveland repped this.
  2. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    Not to mention that, at least around here, the Dallas Morning News covers High School soccer, in season, on a weekly basis....they basically don't give a rats rear about club soccer...
     
    headerdunce, Ruud11 and MLSinCleveland repped this.
  3. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Just to show you how important boys soccer is to our local HS, they lost a game yesterday and the local newspaper did not even show stats on who scored the goals or the goalie and his saves, which is highly unusual. The last two games (yesterday and Tuesday) did not even get up on the local booster website, and other teams have their stats up the same night or next morning if a night game.

    Maybe it's just that our school doesn't care? And I don't think it is an exception, there are quite a few schools that don't care. Either your team is in the top twenty in the state (of hundreds of HS teams), or you're not. Football is the big thing. Lacrosse is a big thing too.

    I'm glad there are club options during the HS season, and my state does not ban HS players from playing club sports during the HS season so my son has teammates who are playing HS soccer. One of his teammates is taking a year off from college and apparently is keeping his eligibility playing on an amateur team while he is off.

    I don't have to worry about him being a captain, except on his ODP team. I don't know what the HS coach's beef is with him. I do know that if a club coach has a beef with him, we can move on. I do know that the team is doing miserably and even more so has little school support - who cares if they are losing if at least the school supports them. Last year they had stats up for the freshman, JV, and varsity teams on the HS athletics website, and this year they have nothing on any freshman or JV stats, and are a week behind on varsity with several games scores only.

    YMMV, our HS is pretty darn bad and thank goodness club coaches know that HS teams in our area are mediocre at best, and ridiculous like my town at worst. It's sad that the HS coach is an alumnus, he should be marketing his team to the school better. That *is* part of a HS coach's job.
     
  4. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    ..This is ALL on the coach and it is apparent he doesn't care at all...HE should be letting the local paper and whoever updates the school's website the score and scorers immediately after each game....If the coach 'doesn't care'....and this one obviously doesn't....then the players won't care either.

    You should let this 'coach' know how you feel....or the school should can his ass.
     
  5. cdskou

    cdskou Member

    Sep 17, 2012
    Club:
    Olympiakos Piraeus
    As a moderator, you should give yourself a yellow card for using foul language.
     
  6. SheHateMe

    SheHateMe Member

    Feb 14, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just ban this jerk.
     
  7. GKParent

    GKParent Member

    Dec 31, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I read the question. It's asks a probability of a probability. If the first probably is greater than zero, the second must be 100%. Sure, the answer is correct, but it's also virtually meaningless.

    Consider a similar question: What are the chances that a woman could end up as president? Is it possible? Certainly. Then the answer is 100% even if it's never happened. The question really only asks if it's possible. I think the poster intended to ask something more like, what are the chances that a woman will end up as president? That answer won't be 100% until it happens.

    I probably shouldn't have said anything, but I'm a math guy and the state of math education in the US is a worse problem than the state of soccer education.
     
  8. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair enough.
     
  9. Virginian

    Virginian Member

    Sep 23, 1999
    Denver, Co
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My son didn't make a full-roster DA team. He could have practiced with a DA program as a developmental player, but chose to play HS instead. He has had one of the best experiences of his life.

    A couple things that HS has going for it:
    1. Players get a different coaching and tactical perspective. You see all kinds of teams with all kinds of tactics. After 4+ years in the USYSA leagues, you come to recognize and expect the same old tactics from the same old teams. (this is especially pronounced now that US Soccer wants all DA teams to play the Klinsmann way).
    2. Social benefits that have been discussed ad nauseum. I don't think you can stress this enough, however.
    3. Younger kids get exposed to playing against bigger, stronger and faster players.

    A couple of things that Club has going for it:
    1. Quality of play. I think this one is obvious.
    2. College scouts at nearly every game. I haven't seen a college scout yet at any of my son's HS games and I don't expect to see any. Maybe if they make the state semifinals or finals.

    The big problem I see is that 90% (or more) of players in my metro area on academy clubs will NOT get a homegrown contract and will NOT get any sort of scholarship. For the 10% that will, the academy environment is great and will ultimately feed the USMNT and YNTs for years to come. For the rest of them (the 90%), I am having a hard time finding the long-term benefits of the DA program.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  10. Ruud11

    Ruud11 Member

    Dec 2, 2009
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    That is exactly my point.

    In our area (Philly suburbs) you will also see (local) College coaches at the 'All-Star' game for which circa 3 of the best players are picked from each HS team.

    I can not stress enough the importance of College ID camps (1 day ones or longer ones in the summer). College coaches like these more than seeing players at DA tournaments and regular travel and DA players are mixed up. It is up to the players to show how coachable, skillwise and gritty they are.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  11. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I understand this choice, if your son wasn't given full roster spot on a DA team. Did he play regular club soccer after his HS season? What would he (you) choose if he was given a full roster spot - would he play HS or DA?


    What is "the Klinsmann way"? As far as I know the DAs are required to use formations with flat back 4. Which I admit I do not like. There is nothing wrong with playing 3-5-2 and 3-4-3.


    Why would you say that 90% of the DA players wont get scholarship to college? Sure, most wont get full scholarship, but a lot of the players do get some partial scholarship. Talking to other parents recently I'm noticing that they have become a little more "honest" about what % of partial scholarship their sons are getting. Of course in some cases there is additional academic scholarship, as it should be and in other cases the parents have the financial means to make the difference.

    However, in general the whole notion of kids playing approximately 10 years of youth soccer for a college scholarship (full or partial) is ridiculous and dumb IMO. On the other hand, I don't think everyone plays DA and/or youth soccer for a college scholarship.
     
  12. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    "3. Younger kids get exposed to playing against bigger, stronger and faster players."

    That's if your HS coach sees quality in smaller players. And our HS coach doesn't. Even smaller players who can strip the ball from him in captain's practices (which apparently include a 35 year old coach playing in his mind).

    A 97 playing with 95s on his club team will not benefit from playing with 97s and 98s on a HS team. Few if any 95s even on varsity, as many 95s have graduated.

    As for most DA vs. some DA vs. few DA players getting scholarships, I would say some will get at least partial scholarships, few will get full scholarships (if any, at some academies). There will also be a set of players who are targeting pro soccer, logically or not, and if they get an agent, they can't play NCAA soccer. Of the very few who manage something like a 2nd division English team, many of them end up crashing and burning anyway. Then they've got no option for a college scholarship.

    The largest scholarship my son is looking at could either be considered 100% at the college I work at (minus books I think) or a much higher value 50% "scholarship" (= grant money) due to financial need he would get if he goes to an Ivy or a few of the well-endowed private colleges. If he got a 0.25 scholarship at an expensive private university, that would certainly help, but some don't have great endowments and he would be responsible for tens of thousands of dollars worth of student loans for each year of college. Point being, even if a scholarship is your goal for your child, there is still a significant effect from exactly which colleges your son is targeting in terms of net cost.

    Most parents I deal with, no matter the level of the team from almost premier to premier to academy, consider the chance (and they consider it a chance no matter the level of the team) of a scholarship more like a lottery ticket or a casino game. Not one says "*When* my son gets a scholarship". All this talk of parents expecting a ROI from youth soccer dollars spent doesn't reflect the real world that I see. The people who REALLY complain about costs of youth soccer say things like "my son doesn't even want to play soccer in college, why am I paying to send him to college showcases" - and their kids have no chance to be recruited because they aren't looking and they invariably aren't top players on top teams. Those parents feel like they are footing the bill for kids like mine who do want to play soccer in college and do therefore want to play in as many college showcases as makes sense.
     
  13. Ruud11

    Ruud11 Member

    Dec 2, 2009
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
  14. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    "Many" kids? If you mean the ROI is going to private school for free, yes in many sports poor kids are recruited to attend private school for free. But most of the academy players I know of are in private school on their own dime, aka rich. I would agree that more kids who are scholarshiped at private schools play club; one of the better clubs in our area has the owner of the club as their head coach, and his teams consist of almost all starters from the same private high school.

    And you do realize that at 9.9 scholarships per D1 soccer team, for a coach to give a freshman a full ride is very rare? Considering if a player does well their freshman year, the coach better either keep the full ride or up them to a full ride, that leaves 8.9 scholarships per team. In that case, as a college coach, you have starters with partial scholarships (11 starters > 9.9 scholarships).

    As for the article, it is one man's perspective. His quote "Eric's first high school season where he was forced to deal with much older, smarter and often better players was easily the single greatest period of development in his soccer career." is highly unusual. Few towns within 50 miles of me will put a freshman on their varsity team regardless of quality. Fewer still will actually play the freshman. Maybe his kid was a national team player (the son was 2nd All-American in 2008 and graduated in 2011).

    My take on HS sports? Thank you to my son's varsity coach for cutting him, because he both a) had time to find a great opportunity to play NPL up two years, and b) has time to referee and make money. Do HS coaches ever think of the money issue? If your son was good enough to play U18 academy at U16, would it be worthwhile to be on the HS varsity team? We are lucky his coach is an azz (we are not unique in that opinion).

    In both cases, the author of the article's and mine, we have specific experiences. His son benefitted from HS soccer. My son had done his duty and more, and gotten rejected. Yet neither his sons or mine were ignored by non-HS soccer, both benefitted greatly from coaches outside of the high school recognizing their talent.

    Should HS soccer be banned for academy players who are not in private school and getting a scholarship (current situation)? In my area, a player is much more likely to get hurt, much more likely to have a poor coach, and much more likely to get treated poorly (yelling and screaming that many clubs would kick a coach out for). Yes, there are a handful of quality public school soccer programs in my state. And yes, they did lose a few players to academies. All the more reason for a club player to avoid HS soccer.

    (PS - I would respectfully disagree that club teams "play the same game" and HS teams "play different styles". Maybe because I am in a soccer state, we see club teams with all sorts of styles. The top team has a kick-and-run style with a handful of very skilled players. The second team in the state plays possession and skill. That #2 team won their bracket in the Donosti Cup and got through to the semifinals against various international teams. Contrast that to the local HS teams, which almost all have very big players who hoof the ball and focus on strength over skill.)
     
  15. Virginian

    Virginian Member

    Sep 23, 1999
    Denver, Co
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. Yes, he has/will play regular club in the spring season. As a Developmental player, he can play in a limited number of games with the academy team if there are injuries or he proves he can contribute to the DA team. If he had made the full DA team, he would have played DA.
    2. US Soccer is instructing all academy teams to play out of the back (i.e. no longball) with a focus on keeping the ball on the ground- playing attacking soccer, much like klinsmann is implementing in the USMNT. This tactical philosophy is being passed down to YNTs and to the academy programs as well. Not every team will implement the style immediately, but at the end of the year each program receives a grade for coaching and tactics. Their grades ultimately determine what clubs stay or are dropped from the USSDA program.
    3. Based upon our state's experience, last year very few players received scholarships at all. At one academy club, only 6 players planned to play in college and none of them received scholarship money. At the local MLS club, the ratio of those players who planned to play in college was much higher and they signed two homegrowns from that class the previous year. If you do the math, very few players will get scholarships and the increased number of academy programs will continue to erode the percentage of players that do.
     
  16. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    This makes sense.

    I knew about that. I was just wondering what you referred to as "the Klinsmann's way". The DAs were asked to play that way before Klinsmann stepped in though.

    You need to understand that things are different in other areas of the country. Interestingly, you say that not many DA players in your area wanted to play college soccer.
     
  17. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    This doesn't pass the sniff test. Why would players tryout for a DA team which emphasizes a significant investment of time and energy for players to maximize their soccer growth start that process without wanting to ever play the game at a higher level. There's a difference between wanting to get a college soccer scholarship and being offered one. Just like there's a huge difference in being offered a college scholarship and having the ability to play college soccer at any level without one.
     
  18. Ruud11

    Ruud11 Member

    Dec 2, 2009
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Cause they burn out or they want to party in College and stop getting hassled by coaches. Have seen it happen!
     
  19. UofIneedssoccer

    Nov 3, 2009
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    [quote11, post: 28792190, member: 160669"]Cause they burn out or they want to party in College and stop getting hassled by coaches. Have seen it happen![/quote]
    The reason is because they are good enough. Easier to quite then to try to prove you are wort
     
  20. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    I understand a few per team. But 18 on one DA team?
     
  21. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    That's a good point. However, when you say "high level" I'm thinking professional level not college soccer. I'm also thinking that if DA players do not want to play in college and they don't want to play pro soccer, then they must be in the DA program for bragging rights.
    Another thing is the fact that I've never heard of a DA team where none of the players are offered college scholarship (even partial).
     
  22. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Would be interesting to know which team. It would also be interesting to know how many players throughout the country enter the DA with the notion to never pursue soccer after 18 nor in college. I always thought it would be a very low number. I don't want to confuse results with expectations, but it is important to know what your constituents expectations are on your product. I really can't see it being a high number. I too have never heard where no players on a DA team were offered a partial scholarship just like the point of the original poster saying that the vast majority of this DA team he mentions doesn't even want to pursue college soccer or college soccer scholarship after DA. That I find hard to swallow. More likely they weren't offered a scholarship so now claims they never wanted to pursue college soccer. Two very different situations.
     
  23. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Talking to parents of academy rising juniors over the summer, perhaps two or three talked about college camps and college recruiting. The rest were like "oh, we are supposed to be doing something about this?" or "won't coaches just contact him?" Not one had a scholarship offer by August before junior year, and not one was in "final talks". It is very clear that many of the kids play at that level because they can, and they have contacts. The one "star" on that academy team was on my son's ODP team two years ago, and was not in the top five in terms of quality. The top five ended up either on NPL teams or other top club teams, all of which allow HS soccer. And he is the best on the academy team.
     
  24. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I sure hope that if these players or any players for that matter who do not want to pursue college soccer after DA are having the ambitions to pursue pro soccer, either here or abroad.
     
  25. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Uh, no. I would say at the two top DA programs in my area, PDA and RBNY, that would be true of more than 75% of the players, that they are targeting college and/or pro soccer. Many of their players either were hand recruited or came to them from another DA to increase their opportunities. Of four other academies within 50 miles, my estimate based on dealing with the parents is that half are not pursuing college let alone pro soccer. They are just there to be there. This includes most starters. My son also knows many of the kids, and we know who is ranked and not in the state, and many of them are not ranked despite being on DA programs. Top ten kids in the state are on PDA or RBNY, very few in the top twenty are with any other DA program.

    When you hear DA parents on the sidelines talking about an important playoff game, and complaining "But it's exam time for my son's school! He has to study all weekend!" as if they didn't understand the commitment. And if they can't manage 7.5 hours of practice and two five-hour trips in a weekend, without jeopardizing their school work, they certainly aren't going to play soccer in college. And if their mommy thinks that exams are that important, there is no way their son is looking at the pros.

    It is very clear to me that there is no consideration given to players targeting college or the pros, because of money. If money was not an issue, they would recruit the best players looking to play in the pros or college. Instead, they take a bunch of kids a few different private schools in the area, to keep their favorites with teammates, and deal with more attention on the best players and ignore the rest. YMMV.
     

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