"no discussion of officiating" policy is ridiculous

Discussion in 'Customer Service' started by AmericanKaka, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. AmericanKaka

    AmericanKaka Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    Certain mods in the WC matchday threads have been blathering that no discussion of officiating is permitted in these threads. Obviously, that is ludicrous. You are providing a service to fans to discuss sporting events. Officiating is one of the most common topics that fans talk about, period. Have you ever, say, watched a match -- of any sport -- at a sports bar, and no there be no discussion of the ref at any point? Have you never watched a aporting event when the refs were the main story of the event, as has been the case many times in many sports? Have you ever heard professional sports commentators refuse to discuss the officiating (other than in Japan, where that is taboo)? If this is just some typical renegade power-crazed BigSoccer mods, then please rein them in. If this is an actual BigSoccer policy now, you need to seriously rethink on a fundamental level what kind of business you are running and adjust accordingly so as not to piss people off more than necessary with arrant stupidity like this.

    And don't even start about the ref forum as an alternative. The ref forums does not allow "ref bashing" either, it's a bunch of pompous kiddie-league zebra nazis who hand out forum bans like candy to anyone who suggest that refs are not monk-like paragons of perfection. That is not a realistic alternative for those of us who are fans of soccer, it is the forum for fans of referrees. They don't want non-refs in there and non-refs don't want to be there.

     
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  2. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I will address this here. In my post, I did not say not to discuss the reffing, I said not to go into detail. (Thank you for quoting my post.)

    It was said in a fast moving moment in the thread, and that was it. As the call was controversial, it is a talking point, and I did expect comments. But there is also a reffing forum for the World Cup, and the details of the controversy are better suited there, in part to prevent people from going off the deep end. I have been around long enough to have an idea when to head off derailing topics. Multiple comments like "the ref sucks" leads very quickly into a downward spiral. Comments like "that was a terrible call" is well within bounds and very relevant. About the prior, my post should have indicated was unacceptable, the latter is not an issue at all.
     
  3. AmericanKaka

    AmericanKaka Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    I appreciate the response, but the reffing forum is moderated like shit, it is not reasonable to expect ordinary fans to go there. There are a bunch of blowhards scolding each other for not knowing the latest interpretation of the laws, and sneering at anyone who's not a ref for, well, not being a ref, since refs are God's infallible gift to soccer. That's the attitude they have there and sending regular fans there will just create meltdowns. I've seen it happen repeatedly before.

    Create a discuss the reffing thread under World Cup 2014 if you insist on compartmentalizing, because the reffing forum will NOT work. It's just going to result in a bunch of people getting forum bans and coming right back to the main Wc threads. It's either that or change the mods of the existing ref forums.
     
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  4. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If the ref forum is not for you, then your option is to show restraint when it is asked. As I said, the issues are two: A) ref bashing which can go downhill quickly; B)excessive discussion of officiating, for which there is a forum, and can make the current/active thread go off topic. Look at the end of Chile v. Spain thread to see how it got off topic.
     
  5. AmericanKaka

    AmericanKaka Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    There IS NO forum for ordinary fans to discuss officiating in detail, because that is defined as "ref bashing" by the mods of the ref forums, who -- duh -- are refs with their own agenda very different from ordinary fans.

    So YOUR option is to create such a forum, change the way the existing ref forums are moderated, or deal with the bullshit of trying to stop regular fans from talking about something they naturally want to talk about. I'm doing you a favor here by laying it out. Your current approach is unrealistic and just pisses people off. Take 20 seconds and create a World Cup 2014 - In-Depth Ref Discussion subforum. Or take 20 minute every day, or every hour, policing sports fans from -- gasp horror -- bitching about reffing in a sports forum -- oh, the humanity!
     
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  6. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You raise an interesting dilemma. I will raise it for discussion in the moderators forum and keep you apprised.
     
  7. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    #7 Teso Dos Bichos, Jun 19, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
    The following exchange perfectly sums up the situation and it was the unrealistic and heavy handed intervention of the moderators in question who took the discussion 'off-topic'.



    Do you guys actually want discussion and added WC traffic or not? The current stance is quite clearly unworkable for the reasons detailed above and by @AmericanKaka. Not only that there is no consistency as a detailed post re hand ball rules that will elicit further discussion on the rules still remains in the thread in question. This needs to be sorted out prior to the knock-out stages where poor officiating will clearly be an even bigger talking point.
     
  8. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Um, I'm an ordinary non-ref fan who finds the referee forum (both in general and the WC specific one) fine to use and post in. The ref forum isn't for dumping on the refs because your team got screwed though. If that's what you're looking for you will get warned and then banned.
     
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  9. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    The point being if you cannot criticise poor decisions in the match thread and you clearly cannot in the referee thread then where can you? It is stupid. Controversy sparks discussion. That's the entire point of being here, right?
     
  10. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's plenty of criticism in the referee forum. There's a discussion right now about how Costa Rica - Italy was probably the worse reffed match so far at the WC.

    What there isn't is "That ref sucked. He was totally biased against team X and shouldn't be allowed to referee an AYSO game much less a game in this league/tournament. I think FIFA/the league is biased against my team".
     
  11. AmericanKaka

    AmericanKaka Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    Yeah, and no sports fan has ever said anything like that about a ref, nor should they ever be permitted to do so on a sports forum, unless approved by a bunch of persnickety grannies who think the refs are the crowning glory of sport.... wait, what?
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey, if you don't want to understand what the point of the Referee forum is, I can't help you. I've been more than pissed off abut referees and yet been able to post and get questions answered in that forum abut a referee performance without getting infracted.
     
  13. AmericanKaka

    AmericanKaka Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    I understand the point of it perfectly. Notice that, as a result, I don't go there and don't get infracted.

    Leaving me with NO PLACE TO SAY WHAT I WANT TO SAY. Which, I mean, is fine in the large philosophical sense, BigSoccer doesn't have to cater to me... they could also ban discussion of goals, and of coaching, and be within their rights... but considering the purport to provide a service where fans can talk about soccer, clamping down on one of the major things fans want to talk about AMONG THEMSELVES, not under the nannying of The League of Extraordinary Refs, defending the honor of officaldom from the great unwashed of fandom, seems like a great way to invite people to see what other places are out there on teh interwebs to talk soccer.
     
  14. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I will agree that the ban in some non-ref forums not to talk about officiating seems off. If they don't want that talk in the Refereeing forum (and I can understand why) then they need to have a reasonable place to have that talk. The team forums seem to be that place,.
     
  15. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we just about have this worked out. Details to follow.
     
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  16. Caesar

    Caesar Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 3, 2004
    Oztraya
    #16 Caesar, Jun 20, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
    In 2010 the expectation was that venting over refereeing belonged in:

    1) the partisan 'home' threads that each country had in their own forums
    2) World Rivalries

    The general World Cup forums were designed for everybody, including neutrals and opposition fans who don't want to scroll through pages and pages of one side constantly banging on about how they got screwed by der refs.

    The referee forum was designed for dispassionate and informational discussion / analysis of the matches, decisions and referees.

    Not to say that's necessarily how things are intended to work this time around; you'd have to talk to the mods of the WC forums.
     
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  17. AmericanKaka

    AmericanKaka Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    So the answer is that you have to go to world rivalries to bash the refs? That doesn't make any sense, but since all the things that made World Rivalries fun have been banned anyway, I guess this is the only purpose left for it. BigSoccer reminds me a lot of a really funny outrageous standup comic who gets a profitable gig on some bland sitcom and becomes unbelievably boring. "Thursdays at 8 on NBC... Not Again, Dad!: this season's hit family comedy, starring Bill Hicks."
     
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  18. Caesar

    Caesar Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 3, 2004
    Oztraya
    More 'if you want to bitch and moan, do it where people who aren't interested can easily avoid it'.

    Partisan whinging is great but it belongs in partisan threads, which is the whole reason you generally have a thread in the England forum and the Italy forum in addition to England v Italy in the World Cup forum.

    Just my opinion. I don't mod the WC forum currently.
     
  19. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Instead of bringing everyone together for better discussion and keeping things in one place for simplicity if I want to properly discuss a World Cup match BS expects me to keep game discussion in the relevant WC thread, navigate to the relevant partisan 'home' thread (if it exists or is even used) to debate refereeing complaints, then for more detailed referee discussion find the relevant thread in the referee forum and then go to world rivalries if I just want a general referee whine or joke..?

    Really? Is this inane silo based approach where we are in 2014? Are people too sensitive to discuss all of the game with fellow fans (friendly, rival or neutral)?
     
  20. Caesar

    Caesar Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 3, 2004
    Oztraya
    It's not strictly by design, it's generally just how it's evolved. Some people want a neutral discussion with all fans, some want an academic discussion of refereeing, some want to just have a partisan discussion with their own fans. Some people want to troll, so we have WR. BS caters to everyone, always has.

    It's not really that hard.
     
  21. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Let the people who want the specialised discussion have it in their specific threads and leave the main WC boards for everyone else to discuss everything. Everyone wins.
     
  22. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Glad you caught on finally, Basil
     
  23. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    You are mistaken. I am complaining about the opposite occurring and discussion being restricted in the main WC threads and attempts made to divert specific topics elsewhere. What I proposed was allowing those who want to discuss everything to be able to do so in the main threads. Those who only want the specialised discussion can go to the specialised threads instead.
     
  24. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry for the delay in getting to this. I've been inhaling mosquitoes in western Michigan for the last 2.5 days.

    I think there's a solid middle ground that is implied by soccernutter's clarification here (thanks 'nutter).

    Ref's calls (and all other aspects of officiating in the games) should be/are fair game in the regular WC forums.
    And just as is the case with any other particular aspect of any match, if especially relentless discussion of a point of officiating threatens to impair ability of a thread devoted to general commentary (and the match discussion threads fall into that category), then it's probably a good idea to do something like create a separate thread for it. That thread does NOT have to be in the refereeing forum, mind you. It can stay in the group forum or, when the time comes, in the forum for the knock-out rounds. Or here, if you really want to howl.

    The ref forum is dedicated to very technical, (ideally) dispassionate analysis of the work done by officials. That process will never easily accommodate the likes of me when I want to gripe about the well-intentioned but alas sadly mistaken individual in day-glow colors who seems intent on letting the bad guys slobberknock my favorite player up and down the pitch. Nor should it be asked to.

    In short: officiating is fair game for discussion throughout the WC forum unless/until it becomes a problem.* Which simply means it's treated the same way we treat other normal aspects of the matches.
     
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  25. AmericanKaka

    AmericanKaka Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    I'm provisionally satisfied with this outcome.
    Thanks.
    Although I would be even more satisfied if Mr Warmth -- speak of the devil, didn't I just mention a bowdlerized Bill Hicks? -- can turn this thread into a flamewar.
     

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