I've watched almost all of Rivaldo's games with Barcelona 1999/00, and about 5-6 games of his with Barcelona 1998/99, and about 10 of his with Barcelona 2000/01. The impression that I get, overall, is that Rivaldo was at his best with Deportivo Coruna (1996/97) until Barcelona 1999/00. (He probably was already at his best at Palmeiras, judging by his Deportivo form. I have no idea as I've never seen his games with Palmeiras.) After Barcelona 1998/99, he was still a great player, mainly because of his clinical powerful left-footed drive, but his physique declined heavily after 1999/00 I'd say. In his better years he reminded me of Riquelme, not so much in the position that he played but in the way he liked to hold the ball for prolonged spells, of course Rivaldo in his prime was much faster than Riquelme, and also a better goal scorer than Riquelme. Overall, I think Rivaldo was an 'early bloomer' in terms of his physical prime and therefore also an early bloomer in terms of his physical decline. That happens a lot in football I find, some people have a genetic pre-disposition for longevity, and some people have a genetic pre-disposition to age early. I think is largely comes down to genetic pre-disposition, or simply the result of injuries that cut down a player's physical prime. Roberto Baggio and Rivaldo are the two players that I think of, when I think of 'early bloomers.' Baggio's face looked like the face of a 40+ year old when Baggio was 33 years old (and Baggio's mobility also looked like the mobility of a player near his 40s, not a player in his early 30s). Though with Baggio there is a well-known and well-documented potential cause: athletes who have to follow a strict regimen of drugs and painkillers as a result of persistent knee pain, tend to suffer from sleep deprivation, and lack of sleep when it happens for 10-15 years tends to create results such as Baggio's early decline (or Brazilian Ronaldo for that matter). I think with Rivaldo it came down to genetic pre-disposition more than anything else. I'm not sure how many other people have a similar perception of Rivaldo, but that's my perception of Rivaldo - an early bloomer who, in his prime, was one of the few players who was extraordinary at everything: ball retention, shooting, passing, and even defending to some degree. I think Rivaldo underperformed, given his potential.
That is very interesting and a great point. I hadn't thought about that with Baggio, but that makes perfect sense. With Rivaldo, I'm certain it had to do with his growing up in severe poverty. I can't remember now, but I read a piece or watched a feature on him and they talked about how he would go without food fairly often in his youth, in fact they blamed his bowlegs on malnutrition. They talked about how when he was a teenager, very few teams wanted to take a chance at him because of his thin frame, which was caused by malnourishment. The dude was all determination, this was a big part of why he had a chip on his shoulder. So yeah, that is most likely why he "peaked" early, by the time he was able to get proper nutrition, his body had already been developed too much.
this line above reminds me of Laudrup almost complete from a technical point yet never reached their full peak potential
I am pleased to read this reading this makes me wonder how much the conditions around the development period of the Brazilian talent has change from the old days to current times. In terms of the conditions a Brazilian prodigy player has to go through in poverty as opposed to their European counterparts. It crossed my mind that Rivaldo's rough coming-off-age as a professional player, out of poverty, seems to represent the average Brazilian prodigy. Often, the young skinny boy subject to malnutrition fighting his way out of poverty to be scouted out of Brazil and into world fame, and most of it on innate talent matched by strong will and a confidence. This is a very common narrative that bare truth nonetheless. Yet, considering how most famous Brazilian players on average tend to lack longevity or are often subject to sudden decline, mostly due to personal reasons rather then professional once e.g. partying instead of keeping up discipline etc. I ask myself what we tend to see among players like Garrincha, Ronaldinho, Adriano etc is this due to the dreaded regime they went through when growing as players? to cut it short, there have been a lot of famous Brazilian players who've fallen from grace prematurely, the cause behind sudden decline tend to be different from case to case, either due to being prone to injuries (R9), lack of appetite (Ronaldinho), lack of discipline (Romario), or addiction (Garrincha). of course not all the causations can be attributed to the poverty culture, but on average there seems to be a common narrative ending famous Brazilian players careers prematurely, often going back to rough upbringing. Question, has this changed lately with the Neymar era? @giles varley @leadleader @celito @Guigs
That has definitely changed, however, the reasons are many. One is that the Brazilian "middle class" has grown, another is that the clubs no longer look for talent ahead of physique as they used to. Their aim has shifted from nurturing talent in order to help their clubs achieve glory to produce players that will attract European attention so they can sell them much easier and make a quick buck. This is because Europeans(mainly Northern) seemed to have historically had a tendency to prefer the athletic side first and then trying to make footballers out of them. Brazilians clubs used to do the opposite until they noticed there was a demand for it and so things have changed. You see that reflection on the national team. Rivaldo grew up in an area that at the time was extremely harsh in terms of poverty. While it still has it's many issues, it has improved since he was young. As for the famous Brazilian players, we also have to understand that while immensely talented, maybe football wasn't their main passion in life and they made a career out of necessity. Or maybe it was their passion until the grind and demand necessary to make them stay at the top turned what they love into just a job. Something that Ronaldinho and Adriano have in common is that they both lost their fathers. Ronaldinho though, wasn't THAT poor really, his older brother was already playing for Gremio when he was a kid, so he never really went without. But losing his father influenced the way he played for sure. This is a great article that should give you an insight into his mind: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/letter-to-my-younger-self-ronaldinho/ Of course, people deal with that kind of stuff differently, but Adriano just couldn't handle it. We may think Cristiano Ronaldo has dealt with it well, but we don't know the guy and what little we do know about him is that he is definitely not a normal person. For whatever reason the guy is strange right? Romario is definitely a bohemian, never liked to train and Garrincha was poor, uneducated and didn't quite have the benefit of a past full of examples not to follow. Today, the clubs play a bigger role in educating the young players, there are plenty of examples not to follow, even the internet can help people learn so we're less likely to see these things happen. Neymar didn't really grow up in "poverty", but he is on a different level of fame as well because of the age we're in. He was way more famous than any of those guys were at 15,16,17 years old. But luckily for him, his parents have been handling it well. Who knows if he'll get sick of it though? Did I miss anything? @giles varley @leadleader @celito @Guigs
Obviously they are different individuals, but the circumstances of how they lost their father was also different. Ronaldinho lost his father when he was young. However, he still had his mother and his brother became a very important father figure for him. I guess at some point Ronaldinho didn't want to put the hard work anymore (the partying was almost always there but it catches up with age). Assis was good to keep him on track until a certain point. After that, I think he just felt Ronaldinho should do what makes him happy. He has admitted in a program recently Ronaldinho with more focus could have done a lot more. Adriano lost his father in the peak of his career. I don't know if he has a mother or any siblings. Supposedly his father kept him grounded although I don't know much of the story. Adriano also never really reached the heights of Ronaldinho, Romario, Ronaldo. Cristiano Ronaldo I think never had a great relationship with his father as he was an alcoholic and that's what took his life. He clearly has a strong relationship with his mother and siblings. Romario never declined like the others. He never changed his style. He skipped training when he was young, he skipped when he was older. He never drank. His addiction were women, some parties, and playing cards with friends. So I wouldn't say he threw his career away like Adriano and Ronaldinho. He decided after a certain age that he was going to be strictly a box player at around the same time players start losing their spring. That took even less dedication to training which fit his life style. But he always took care of his body never being overweight. Ronaldo always had training issues throughout his whole career. Later he had weight issues. Not to mention partying, drinking and smoking. But we under estimate how bad those knee injuries were. Even with all of that, I always found his weight issues quite strange. Neymar looks like he will be well grounded. I think asking Messi/Ronaldo type of dedication may be unrealistic. That's pretty rare for forwards IMO. Supposedly he doesn't drink, but he does like to party in his own time. I haven't heard anything bad about his lack of dedication tin training so I think he will be fine.
Rivaldo's early decline was definitely the result of severe poverty in critical stages of the development of his physique. About Baggio - I've actually read several articles where he admits that he rarely ever enjoyed sleep as a result of persistent knee pain, if I remember correctly, Baggio went as far as to say that he played at 80% of his fitness 90% of the time. I more or less believe him, because he aged very early in his career, both physically as well as in his appearance.
Most of them declined early mainly due to poverty, in my opinion. You can see the pattern in all the great ones - Romario's speed went down dramatically between 1992/93 and 1994/95, same for Rivaldo between 1996/97 and 2000/01, same for Ronaldinho between 2002/03 and 2006/07, etc. They seem to enjoy 2-4 years at their best, followed by a sharp physical decline. In pure terms: a European finds merit in working hard to enjoy longevity, but the longevity arguably has much more to do with how the body responds, than it has to do with mental strength or determination. A South American that grew up in poverty, will have less gratifying messages from his body, basically, work as hard as you like but your body is going downhill fast, regardless of how hard you work - so you just give up in a sense. A Brazilian will tend to prefer to go back to Brazil enjoy something of a paid holiday and retire without a bang. In conclusion: it's far easier to have 'discipline' when your body actively rewards you for it. If your body doesn't send those positive signals, it's significantly more difficult to be disciplined (especially when you had to sacrifice much more to get there in the first place). The early decline then gets misrepresented as "lack of something that they could control if they were disciplined enough to control it," which sums up how self-absorved human beings are in general. Many of us having grown up in relatively good/decent conditions, never consistently entertain the idea that malnutrition/poverty will always have long-term consequences on both the body and the mind. The mind is stronger e.g. Johan Cruyff's famous line, "Laudrup would be the best in the world, if not one of the best players ever, had he been born in a ghetto ." (Not Cruyff's exact words.) But the body declines early or earlier, compared to Europeans who grew up in significantly better conditions.
I am not sure about that. It could be because Europeans only got acquainted with these guys when they were already in their mid 20s. Romario at Barca in 93 was already 26/27. Rivaldo at Barca is already 25. Ronaldinho is probably your exception but it's because he didn't give a shit after 2006. And as stated, he wasn't really that poor. Messi has already slowed down quite a bit. Ronaldo can't dribble past anyone for a couple of seasons now. But in Europe they have been in the lime light since their late teens.
I think you're probably correct - my opinion seems to be too influenced by poverty-determinism, even for my liking. But it is my honest perception: South Americans tend to slow down at 27-28 years of age, whereas Europeans tend to slow down at around the same age, but less sharply, meaning that they retain their 'prime form' for another 2-3 years. That's a big difference when you're only looking at "prime years." NOTE: Ronaldinho was so great. I've been collecting videos of him over the past month or so, and he is better than I remembered.
The bottom line is that there is an observable early overall decline in performance of the Latin player relative to European players, approximately about the late stages of prime-time. And something has got do it. And it seems that since the overwhelming majority of Latin star players come out of the lower socio-economic class, conditions set by poverty becomes the prime suspect. Bare in mind that, of course, there are other non-economic factors setting the lifetime (or expiry date) of a player better years e.g. mindset, physiology, agent competency, club politics and commercial (value) marketability. But it seems that with the exception of a very few minority outliers in Ronaldinho and Neymar, that most of all other Latin greats limelight have expired more or less at the same age and fashion. Yes, Ronaldinho may not have had a rough upbringing compared to Rivaldo, because the former comes from the middle class whilst the latter out of deep poverty, but there are other negative factors running parallel with economics causing relatively earlier decline. And these other non-economic factors seems to hit Latin players more often then their European counterparts.
Kaka is another example. He slowed down considerably in the late 20s and he was most definitely upper middle class.
But with Kaka we know, and we know for a fact, that a bad knee problem combined with a bad hip problem, stopped him at 26 years of age - he should've been in his peak at 27 years of age, but instead his career was virtually over at 28 years of age.
That is very true. We've had better luck with players in other positions keeping their form later in their careers. Roberto Carlos held up well. Cafu had a pretty long career. Ze Roberto is still playing in his 40s in Brazil. They obviously didn't achieve the heights of those other ones though.
This begs the question then. Which Europeans can we compare to the guys that reached those heights and how do they compare in terms of longevity?
Excellent point and one I was about to make. Right now, Ronaldo is the obvious choice. Since we are talking about Brazilians in specific, you can count Messi as well. Henry for me had an amazing club career at Arsenal that you could include. Zidane was never that explosive. His game was always more cerebral. How about Figo ? I thought he lost quite a bit already at RM compared to his younger days. Then you have Michael Owen who faded early IMO and also more recently Rooney.
I can't think of any European in the same class as Ronaldinho, R9, Romario, Rivaldo etc that have kept their best form with longevity. They all had very brief peaks. Perhaps, Bergkamp, Stoichkov, Gullit or Rijkaard might have stayed at the top for longer? Did any of these guys kept their best form for longer than the Brazilians, I don't thinks so. @_Ziggy_ @giles varley @leadleader
Also, historically, do Argentinians differ much from Brazilians in terms of development, are they better off then their neighbours? @leadleader @_Ziggy_ @giles varley @celito
Correct. Shevchenko was explosive and seemed to have a very sudden decline. What about Del Piero? He he was hampered by injuries right?
Hmm, I would say Bergkamp was similar to Zidane in that he wasn't exactly the explosive type, he did seem to get better with age, but that was because his game was so cerebral. I love that guy. Stoichkov left Barca at 29 in 95 and went to Parma, then back to Barca, but was nowhere near the same player. I think you have a case with Gullit though, he seemed to have kept a high level for a long time. Not sure about Rijkaard.
I'm not able to offer as much in terms of their development since what I know is anecdotal, I haven't really seen or researched it. The little I know is that they were similar in economic terms, similar in structure as well, just different game philosophies. But unlike the Brazilian clubs, lately the Argentine ones seem to be struggling financially in comparison. Batistuta was able to stay at the top until he was 30-31 and then his drop off was sharper than a Ginsu knife. But again, it was injury related, his knees were done. Ariel Ortega had discipline issues, was a drinker and didn't quite fulfill his potential. Veron played for quite a while, but was also never explosive right? I would put him alongside a Juninho Pernambucano, Alex. I would say Zanetti is similar to Cafu, Roberto Carlos and Ze Roberto, Marcos Assuncao, Methuselah type players. Tevez seemed to have done well age wise, but he is not in the same category as R9 and the others. @leadleader @giles varley @celito
Del Piero in his absolute peak day, 1997-1998 season was dubbed as the real fenomeno by juventini. At this time it was about Del Piero vs Ronaldo in Seria A. I even thought Del Piero could have surprassed Baggio after that season but the injury against Udinese stole him pretty much. Then we see two different Del Piero. He was never the same after that injury
I thought I remembered Del Piero playing at an extremely high level, thank you for confirming it. May I say, if your name Ozora is for Tsubasa, then it is awesome!
Just remember "Del piero zone" from the past, now we have "Robben zone" Yeah, this nickname come from Ozora Tsubasa from my favourite manga, Captain Tsubasa. He is actually my first football hero,alongside with Maradona. And he is Del Piero hero too